Motown

[Ron]

I play the soul-jazz song "The In Crowd" by Ramsey Lewis somewhat frequently and I think it feels pretty natural to Lindy to it, even though it doesn't have a swinging rhythm. One of my swing friends says its her favorite song to dance to. Something about the rhythm of that song makes me want to move.

I don't play many songs that lack a swinging rhythm, though. I usually feel too uncomfortable as I try to make Lindy moves fit the song. And I think others feel the same. I play 98% swinging rhythm songs. The rest should be considered novelty songs, some variety to spice things up, and we've already had many a thread about not playing too many novelty songs.

[mousethief]

Man, this one time, in Dallas, the DJ played an hour of novelty songs.

And it wasn't Don West, either.

Kalman

[funkyfreak]

We could probably think of a dozen more reasons as to why people never danced lindy and swing patterns to soul music back in the 60s. Or, maybe some folks did and it just never caught on. Who knows.

I guess it is a matter of perspective, most of us are in our 20s - 50s looking at the lindy hop in relation to everything that has come since then. Hence, some people see the more recent dance trends and music genres as threats, while others see them as opportunities.

I've yet to meet 80-90 year olds who say they looked to go out and dance Lindy Hop to Motown in the 60's, baring the rare time forcing the movements over other music.

Sure, pieces of the dance were stolen for new dances, but then they became new dances. With that, you do find some old moves coming up in the new dances that developed from the new music, however those who danced Lindy Hop, Balboa, etc. in the 60s still did so to swing music.

-FF

[Nate Dogg]

We could probably think of a dozen more reasons as to why people never danced lindy and swing patterns to soul music back in the 60s. Or, maybe some folks did and it just never caught on. Who knows.

I guess it is a matter of perspective, most of us are in our 20s - 50s looking at the lindy hop in relation to everything that has come since then. Hence, some people see the more recent dance trends and music genres as threats, while others see them as opportunities.

I've yet to meet 80-90 year olds who say they looked to go out and dance Lindy Hop to Motown in the 60's, baring the rare time forcing the movements over other music.

Sure, pieces of the dance were stolen for new dances, but then they became new dances. With that, you do find some old moves coming up in the new dances that developed from the new music, however those who danced Lindy Hop, Balboa, etc. in the 60s still did so to swing music.

-FF

My argument was not about whether the swing era dancers wanted to dance to soul music in the 60s. I am sure they did not desire to do so. Just like you don't see a lot of people who came of age in the 60s dancing hip hop.

My point was that the younger generation in the 60s was not interested in lindy hop in the 60s, whether it be to Motown or real swing music. Just because my dad did not want to dance a swing out to a Marvin Gaye song back in 1969, why should that stop me?

We have 80 years worth music history that Frankie Manning's generation did not have back in the 30s. A lot of dancers and DJs out there don't mind incorporating some of it into the mix.

Also, I never said that Motown songs should be the main feature at a dance, I have said that I play one every now and then as novelty songs. I have also said that I don't think there should be more than 1 or 2 novelty songs an hour. The bulk of sets are actual swing or blues songs.

[mousethief]

My point was that the younger generation in the 60s was not interested in lindy hop in the 60s, whether it be to Motown or real swing music. Just because my dad did not want to dance a swing out to a Marvin Gaye song back in 1969, why should that stop me?

You could just do Swingout, which is actually closer to the music.

I have also said that I don't think there should be more than 1 or 2 novelty songs an hour. The bulk of sets are actual swing or blues songs.

Which brings up the inevitable debate about what that means. So before someone can drone on about triplets, etc, here you go...

jazz2 - funkswing1 + novsong2/grooveblues = lindy101

Kalman

[julius]

Two things occurred to me during this thread.

One of them I'll forebear from sharing because it's a personal attack. Actually, more of an observation about someone's style.

The other is a quote.

Chewbacca is a wookie. Like all wookies, Chewbacca comes from the planet Endor. My question is: Why?!? Why would a seven foot tall wookie come from a planet that has all these small, cuddly Ewoks? Who did he play with as a child? How did he grow so tall? How can he ever mate and reproduce? He must potentially be so very invisibly unhappy!! Yes, it is a contradiction: he comes from Endor where all the Ewoks are three feet tall, and he is seven feet tall, himself!!

It... does not... make sense!!

And what does this have to do with this case? What possible relevance could this argument have to the merits of swing music vs. Motown. Absolutely NOTHING! It is irrelevant. Which is why you must reject Lawrence's argument:

It... does not... make sense!!

I rest my case.

[Lawrence]

This is Chewbacca.
***
It... does not... make sense!!

Well, it's good to know we at least see eye-to eye about not seeing eye-to-eye at all and not making sense to each other.

I do think this is a "debate" better done in person with music examples and demonstration, which I'm able to do with my students, and which does make sense to even the least "musically inclined" of them.

Also, I didn't mean to completely ignore your earlier request for my list of essential factors, I just didn't think it was worth prolonging another debate that wouldn't go anywhere on this board because we weren't speaking in the same terms or respectfully looking for points of agreement over points of disagreement. I also had already listed the essential rhythmic elements of Lindy Hop in an earlier post on the second page of this thread. Those 5 elements were my rough attempt at a philosophical analysis of what Lindy Hop rhythmically needs in order to "work:" individually necessary and jointly sufficient conditions, not just accidental or denotative factors or aspects of the small pocket of the Lindy Hop world that I frequent.

The only rhythmic thing missing in what we're referring to as "Motown" is the syncopation: the syncopated triplets. Thus, the question remains: what is this fundamental aspect of "Motown Lindy" such that it can't be considered an adaptation of Lindy Hop to match some music we want to dance to: an adaptation just like the original evolution of Lindy Hop adapting to Swing music? If you simply answer "Swing music," then you are arguing in a circle.

To phrase it another way, why are the syncopated triple steps more fundamental to Lindy Hop than, say, 1) the basic 8-count Lindy patterns (swing-out, circle, etc.), 2) the progressions of those 8-count patterns (the circle of going up for four beats, then returning down for four beats; bring her in for four beats, swing her back out for the next four beats), 3) the athletic posture and "feeling" of the dance, 4) the free-form improvisational nature of the dance as a "street dance", and 5) the unique approach toward leading and following with a tigher connection than, say, West Coast Swing or any other Ballroom dance?

[Lawrence]

I play the soul-jazz song "The In Crowd" by Ramsey Lewis somewhat frequently and I think it feels pretty natural to Lindy to it, even though it doesn't have a swinging rhythm. One of my swing friends says its her favorite song to dance to. Something about the rhythm of that song makes me want to move.

I don't play many songs that lack a swinging rhythm, though. * * * * I play 98% swinging rhythm songs.

Yes!! That Ramsey Lewis "In Crowd" song--and how it really enthusiastically gets Lindy Hoppers to naturally dance to it--is EXACTLY what I'm referring to and exactly the starting point for the progression that eventually led me to realize that syncopation/swing is not necessary for Lindy Hop. It sounds horriffic and terrifying until you see it working well and how it opens the door to dancing Lindy Hop to all kinds of new music.

That said, many who have read this thread (and other threads like it) might be surprised at how traditional my own sets can be. Just as Nathan commented last night at how Kalman's remarks make him seem NOTHING like the diverse, open-minded, dare I say "great" DJ that he is, my posts probably have made it seem like I'm farther "out there" than I really am. I do sometimes go less than the 98% traditional Lindy Hop swing (groove and vintage included) to which you say you limit your sets, but the non-swing Motown, Funk, Rock, etc. never dominates the heart of my own sets. But I do love being able to do it.

[KevinSchaper]

[julius]

Also, I didn't mean to completely ignore your earlier request for my list of essential factors, I just didn't think it was worth prolonging another debate that wouldn't go anywhere on this board because we weren't speaking in the same terms or respectfully looking for points of agreement over points of disagreement.

What this paragraph (and your chewbacca quote, which is why I quoted it) says to me is:

"I will let you outline your position for criticism, but once you do, it becomes pointless to go on because it's obvious we don't agree and it wouldn't go anywhere, so I'm not going to bother."

Seems kind of rude. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it comes across to me.

Just remember, you are the fellow who demands specifics and minute elaboration on everything, not me. I don't WANT to get that detailed about these discussions, because I don't think it's warranted.

[Lawrence]

"I will let you outline your position for criticism, but once you do, it becomes pointless to go on because it's obvious we don't agree and it wouldn't go anywhere, so I'm not going to bother."

Seems kind of rude. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it comes across to me.

This should perhaps go to PM, but that was not my intent. I simply didn't respond to your telling me I "fail" to understand what "necessary" and "sufficient" are, which is a bit ridiculous. (I taught Logic and majored in Philosophy in college, which partly explains why I'm so pedantic and boring to some). I had also already answered your question at the outset, which is part of why I saw things not progressing.

Also, it's not like a continuous discussion where my cutting off in the middle of a heated discussion shows disrespect. There was a night or two in between posts to reflect upon it (albeit in passing) and realize that we were not getting anywhere and probably wouldn't online. (Others probably made that realization on page 2 of the thread; I was just slower.) The timing of your having made the last post was coincidental.

Nonetheless, I did respond to your use of the Chewbacca Defense if only to break the disrespectful patterns we constantly fall into: in part to show that I laughed at it, too, and that I could do so even though we disagree and you were using my own sarcasm against me.

[mousethief]

*crying*

Kalman

[mousethief]

Just as Nathan commented last night at how Kalman's remarks make him seem NOTHING like the diverse, open-minded, dare I say...

Dare! Dare!

You get the same language from me in public too! I can't imagine that anyone could mistake my sets with me. I've been an arrogant, opinionated SOB since day one. Fortunately, my opinion in this matter is to play swinging music for a particular dance so that the people who came to dance all night could dance all night, regardless of my personal agenda -

And my agenda is keep the dancers on floor without destroying the spirit and history of the dance that they came to do.

Just because I might play a large amount of post-war jazz doesn't mean that I'm not discriminating. I consider myself open minded for the purposes of listening to and considering a new piece of music, but if it doesn't swing, then it doesn't make much difference to me as far as my book is concerned.

You want to talk Motown? I love Motown. But that doesn't mean I think it swings.

Here's a quick list of music that I own and enjoy but don't think swings a-tall:

• Funk
  Motown
  Yanni (all right, I don't own any)
  Rock 'n Roll (any)
  Disco
  Soul
  Reggae
  Most crooners
  Most feel good, so-called WCS stuff

I also do not like...

• Mose Allison
  Eva Cassidy
  Poppa Cubby
  And most blues drenched piano stuff

[Lawrence]

Just as Nathan commented last night at how Kalman's remarks make him seem NOTHING like the diverse, open-minded, dare I say...

Dare! Dare!

You get the same language from me in public too! I can't imagine that anyone could mistake my sets with me.

The difference is between your sets and what you write, here, not between your sets and "you." Your posts often make you appear to be worse than Harrison in how much vintage music you play. (Now watch, just to spite me, he'll pull the excessive "nothing but vintage music" extreme theme the next time I see him. )

You want to talk Motown? I love Motown. But that doesn't mean I think it swings. Here's a quick list of music that I own and enjoy but don't think swings a-tall:

• Funk
  Motown
  Rock 'n Roll (any)
  Disco
  Soul
  Reggae

I've been avoiding using the "swing" word, but you are correct. Very little, if any, of the above genres "swing." The horrifying, shocking truth, though, is that the lack of swing does not make them "unLindyHoppable."

Note that I did edit Yanni out of that list.

[julius]

*crying*

Kalman

we need swingdjs.com t-shirts.

oh, yes we do.