why does everyone hate "wade in the water?"

Message

CafeSavoy · #61 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:13 pm

i've been playing "in the mood" lately, maybe it's time to add "wade in the water" too.

(geek) · #62 Post by **(geek)** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:35 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:i've been playing "in the mood" lately, maybe it's time to add "wade in the water" too.

What, no "Jump, Jive, and Wail"?

Lawrence · #63 Post by **Lawrence** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:09 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:i've been playing "in the mood" lately, maybe it's time to add "wade in the water" too.

I actually played "Chatanooga Choo Cho" the other night... but only after apologizing for doing so in advance. I unfortunately feel a bit embarrassed admitting it, but the original version is actually pretty good, especially with the Nicholas Brothers section added on from the movie; it's all the lame re-makes that gives it a bad name.

Lawrence · #64 Post by **Lawrence** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:13 pm

The other story that NEEDS to be re-told here is from the Dallas Exchange. The organizers shared the venue (and basically tagged-onto) a large, National Westie event that offered to rent some extra rooms to the Exchange planners for the Exchange because they were not using the extra rooms in the hotel. Some of the crossover types in Dallas and Austin looked at it as a chance to showcase Lindy to Westies and WCS to Lindy Hoppers. In fact, both dances ended up being little more than a curiousity to the other.

Toward the end of Saturday night's after-hours, Jerry was DJing. He made some announcements about the impending end of the dance, and hit "Wade In the Water" He then stopped it after the first few bars, got on the mike, and said, "oops, sorry, wrong room...."

CafeSavoy · #65 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:18 pm

(geek) wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:i've been playing "in the mood" lately, maybe it's time to add "wade in the water" too.
What, no "Jump, Jive, and Wail"?

Nah, but i'm thinking of playing another of his songs, there are some nice short versions of "sing sing sing" by fletcher henderson and roy eldridge.

Lawrence · #66 Post by **Lawrence** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:19 pm

julius wrote:i know everyone has different criteria for "lindyable" music (god that word is so horrifying).

one of mine is: can i throw a few charlestons in?

wade in the water: no

i will happily dance to wade in the water. i love the song. i do not for one moment think i am doing lindy hop.

You can do Charlestons to it if you truly slow the movement down and don't rush it, which is the pre-inclination whenever doing Charleston because it is mostly done to faster music.

As for the "Lindy Hop" point, that point has been fruitlessly debated too often on this board. Suffice to say that, although I respect Julius' opinion and his right to his opinion, it does not seem like Julius' opinion on this point is widely shared. For one thing, it defines "Charlestonable" music, not "Lindy Hoppable" music. For another thing, again, I can do Charleston comfortably to slower music by "filling" the empty time (added time) with smoother, more fluid movement.

djstarr · #67 Post by **djstarr** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:28 pm

CafeSavoy wrote: The talk sounds great, wish i could have been there. Her comment does raise some interesting questions. Did she give any indication of what percentage of songs were slower tempo and what percentage of people danced to the slower songs? Did all the lindy dancers sit down when the slow songs were played? Did the dancers think of themselves as dancers or lindy dancers? Did they only dance lindy or was it just that lindy was their first choice? How about bands? Were bands expected to play only "lindy" music?

This is what I remember from her talk - she said that at her time at the Savoy ('48 - 58') [good point Roy] that they danced either really slow or really fast; not a lot of mid-tempo. She then talked about how she started entering Harvest Moon Ball contests - she had missed the preliminaries at the Savoy, and the only ballroom still running preliminaries was Roseland, so her and her partner went there and placed 2nd to qualify [top 4 couples went on to Harvest Moon Ball to represent their ballrooms].

During the finals the couples competed together from the same ballroom; they were also allowed to set the tempos for the bands playing behind them; Sugar kept asking for the tempos to be faster and the other 3 couples from Roseland kept objecting. After that she told her partner that they would only compete from the Savoy from then on - the Savoy ballroom won Harvest Moon Ball 18 out of 20 years (if I remember the #'s right) - Sugar said of course you will win if you are dancing faster than the other couples (and looking just as good).

In contrast, Tonya also had met a gentleman named Jesse Middleton - she saw him doing Lindy at a night club here and introduced herself; he came out and talked about his experiences with Sugar this past Saturday.

He is a white man who danced at the Savoy occasionally during the 30's. Because of the race situation, rarely did whites go up to the Savoy. Jesse would go, but often sit in the corner and just watch since the level of dance was so great at the Savoy. He said that most white dancers went to the Roseland, and that the tempos were much slower there. His pet peeve is NPR insisting that Louis Armstrong should be called "Lewis" - everyone knew him as "Louie" or "Pops". He also got to hear Chick Webb live doing Harlem Congo.

And we asked Sugar what her favorite band to dance to was --- she said without a doubt Count Basie - Duke came in 2nd.

So to quote Kevin T. - the King of Swing is Basie; I've heard Frankie, Norma and Sugar all agree on this point - makes me want to play more Basie than I have been.

And if you listen to "Don't be that Way" - Chick Webb vs. Benny Goodman, I think there is a noticeable difference in how those songs are played; Chick's is must faster and peppier.

Downeastdancer · #68 Post by **Downeastdancer** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:46 pm

Reading this thread I think some of us need to lighten up. When "Wade" comes on for the umpteenth time, I just make a big production of rolling up my pant legs. It gets a laugh from those who are paying attention, and quizzical stares from the newcomers and people who never listen to ANY lyrics.

CafeSavoy · #69 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:29 pm

djstarr wrote:
And we asked Sugar what her favorite band to dance to was --- she said without a doubt Count Basie - Duke came in 2nd.

So to quote Kevin T. - the King of Swing is Basie; I've heard Frankie, Norma and Sugar all agree on this point - makes me want to play more Basie than I have been.

And if you listen to "Don't be that Way" - Chick Webb vs. Benny Goodman, I think there is a noticeable difference in how those songs are played; Chick's is must faster and peppier.

On the Basie Carnegie Hall DVD Tony Bennett states: "Ellington and Basie are the two great pillars of Jazz. To me, Basie is the Earth and Ellington is the Sky." During the intro part of the dvd, Jon Hendricks mentions there are only a few royalty in jazz, and of them, Basie is King of Swing and Duke is King of Jazz.

Another wrinkle in the Savoy tempos discussion is from George Reed, drummer with Lindy Hop Heaven who danced at the Savoy in the 30's and 40's, who mentioned that most dancers usually danced half-time to the faster songs.

I agree, Chick Webb's version of "Don't Be That Way" is my favorite. Although it does seem to be a song that's done at various tempos. The version with Lionel Hampton, Benny Carter, et al from _Hot Malllets_ is around 140 bpm.

djstarr · #70 Post by **djstarr** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:03 am

CafeSavoy wrote:On the Basie Carnegie Hall DVD Tony Bennett states: "Ellington and Basie are the two great pillars of Jazz. To me, Basie is the Earth and Ellington is the Sky."

agree. Personally, I like listening to Duke Ellington better than Basie since I find it more complicated - both harmonically and rhythmically.

There is a lot of Ellington I like to dance to and a lot that I think is difficult to dance to and so won't spin.

I'm trying to think of any Basie I have that I wouldn't spin - maybe a track here and there, but for the most part I think Basie is all danceable - anybody feel differently?

#71 Post by **JesseMiner** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:10 am

Roy wrote:So when would one play Wade in the water or other overplayed songs?

Wade in the water pisses some people off mostly experienced dancers, similar to In the mood, most Glenn Miller songs, mamba #5, motown songs, most neo-swing, anything that resembles a WCS song. I classify them all as "songs that piss some people off" hence I will never play them. Most of what is mentioned above is liked by newer dancers. When do you play them?

First off, I don't know what dancers are getting pissed off from hearing "Wade In The Water". Many dancers that I know love the song and enjoy hearing it on occasion, just not like clock work every week at the same venue. Like any "hit" (yes "Wade In The Water" is one of those), it only needs to be played occasionally. It's wonderful that we have so many "hits" at our disposal. We can bust out a couple a night, not repeating for weeks or even months, and keep most everyone happy.

Secondly, I certainly don't put "Wade In The Water" in the same category with any of the songs/styles you have mentioned above. Yes the tune has been popular in WCS circles but definitely holds little in common with the pop music that is currently dominating their scene. I don't understand why it is hated by some with the same intensity as "Zoot Suit Riot" or the likes. Even "Jump, Jive and Wail" can have its moment. I had the time of my life dancing to it in a 5 am birthday jam at the Austin Exchange last year.

Roy wrote:Jesse when was the last time you played Wade in the Water? Have you ever played in at an exchange or an event in the past year?

I can't remember specifics, but it was definitely a request and was within the last year. I do carry it in my book and would gladly play it when the time is right.

Roy wrote:Maybe a descpription of when you decide to play entire sets of unfamilar music and when you would decide to play sets with some or mostly familiar music would be cool. and when and how often would you put in overplayed songs.

Well for me, I avoid playing entire sets of unfamiliar music. It's always important to balance the familiar with the unfamiliar. As for when to put in familiar and overplayed songs and how many to play, it depends on your crowd. If you're playing to a predominately experienced crowd that has been around for a while and has heard all of these songs a million times, they you play them infrequently, while understanding the positive impact they can have when thrown in at the appropriate time. People love hearing an old favorite on occasion. It can bring back lots of memories for them. For a less-experienced or newer crowd, you might mix them in with greater frequency. Many of these dancers might not be at all familiar with some of these great songs that others have grown tired of. This past weekend at the NYLHO, Rayned and I played "Lucas With The Lid Off" to end the Invitational Jack and Jill all-skate, and a few people came up asking what it was!

Also as I have mentioned before, there are many songs that I as a dancer never get tired of, and I know there are many others out there like me, so be warey of retiring any song for good.

Jesse

Roy · #72 Post by **Roy** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:41 am

As I think about it the extreme anti-wade in the water might be a Chicago thing. Not everyone of course, but enough to make it a extremly poor choice to play.

There are other songs like this too. For example Nighttrain while not overplayed anymore several main people in the Chicago scene hate this song(not me, i still love it). Any version of the song is a poor selection in Chicago.

I still think that you need to be real careful playing songs that parts of a crowd might despise. One song can teint people's views of an entire set. This happened a few years back when a DJ played mambo#5 and that destroyed his entire set for many people. People were litterally walking around bitching about the song and the DJ for a good 10 minutes.

Soupbone · #73 Post by **Soupbone** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:53 am

djstarr wrote: I'm trying to think of any Basie I have that I wouldn't spin - maybe a track here and there, but for the most part I think Basie is all danceable - anybody feel differently?

Although I don't own it, I can only envision that "Basie's Beatle Bag" would not make my playlists.

mark0tz · #74 Post by **mark0tz** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:03 am

Roy wrote:People were litterally walking around bitching about the song and the DJ for a good 10 minutes.

haha bitching about a song and a DJ for 3 times as long as the song they're complaining about. Seems pathetic to me. When I hear a song that I dislike, or even detest, I go get a drink of water and hope the next one is better. I also like the roll up the pant legs mentality/approach towards a song you don't like.

Hell, reminds me of the Neo-Swing only night that Jam Cellar (Tuesday night venue in DC hosted by Matt Smiley, Nina, Gretta, Andy Reid, Naomi, Skye, et al) had here a few weeks ago. I didn't go, but from what I heard it was well attended and people had a blast, even if the music completely sucked.

So not worth it to get all pissy about one song.

Greg Avakian · #75 Post by **Greg Avakian** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:11 am

(geek) wrote:I recall some DJs spinning 2-3 versions of Moten Swing in relatively rapid succession at the last SFLX. Perhaps the song is a little tired, but under the right circumstances it can still delight everyone involved.

Jesse, Manu and I did this on the last night of SOFLEX with Moanin'.
After hearing 3 different versions, people moaned when they didn't hear a 4th version. I would not suggest doing that every time you DJ (alone or with someone else), but sometimes the room is totally on your side and you almost can't play the 'wrong' song. In this case, it was definitely the right thing to do...

Another example: I've played French disco and gotten wild cheers, but I wouldn't do that at 3/4 the events I spin at...

Same rule applies for overplayed songs: just get to know your audience!

As a prep, you might try playing something "slightly" over played or something that is really similar. See if the audience even likes that genre to begin with. wait for awhile and then try your overplayed song.

If you get a request, you feel trapped and you want to be "safe", play two really opposite overplayed songs in a row; if it doesn't go over, you can claim it was your attempt at "comedy"...

Whatever happens, try to learn something from the exprerience.