The "Removing The CD Player" Debate

[Mr Awesomer]

Who said anything about MP3s? Vinyl DJs could always rip their collections via a USB turntable and store their LPs in a lossless format ... they should get with the program

Lossless still doesn't get rid of the analog to digital conversion problem though, which is what kills the sound. When they solve that, yeah, I'll start knocking the 2 people who play vinyl.

[LindyChef]

The conversion isn't an issue when you use a sample rate that's well beyond the range of human hearing, like the 24 bit/96 khz sample rates used in most audiophile setups.

24 bit provides a db range that is greater than vinyl and 96 khz sampling will provide a sound frequency that is double the range of most human hearing and is not reproduceable by all but the best audiophile setups.

I would be surprised if you could tell the difference in a three sample blind test between an actual vinyl recording and one that was encoded at 24/96 with FLAC. (Three sample tests are better to do ... 2 of one, one of the other ... with two samples, it's easy to distinguish what's different ... with three, it's much more challenging ... try it with pepsi and coke sometime).

But that's another thread entirely.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Most everyone these days has a computer...

False. Not everyone has a computer. Even if the computer were to be a "general use" machine - the expense of buying a computer is still non-trivial.

Better sound cards, external hard drives and backup systems are niceties... not requirements. So is paid for DJing software. There are a number of free software solutions that perfectly suit the needs of a non-mixing DJ.

True and False.

Professional tools for professional results. Even so, PCDJ Blue is more software than most people will ever need, and it's about $50. It's would be hard to use "free" tools for playing and not have at least $50 in aggravation over time.

I advise people to trade computer performance for most of those "niceties" as you say: 1GB of Ram in stead of 2GB of RAM - and spend the "saved" $$$ on a better sound card. A smaller internal hard drive - and spend the "saved" $$$ on an external drive (double or tipple the "extra" space).

The ability to monitor a song while playing is also not optional. (But I did notice that it is another thread... )

As for ripping music, it's not that bad. You swap out a disc every 15 minutes or so and click a few buttons. In the meantime you go about your daily business. And, it's a ONE TIME process. Adding music as you buy new CDs becomes trivial.

ONE TIME process? If only. I've ripped my collection twice....I'm debating re-ripping again with FLAC. But, I'd need a bunch more HD space...and a lot more babysitting time.

I started with 128 kbps, back when HD space was not quite as cheap as it was today - and when sound cards were not as good. At some point I was using 192 CBR then 192 VBR. Now I rip at 224 CBR. It took me about 9 months of calendar time to rip my full CD collection that last time I did it.

But maybe that's just me.

Lastly, in the long run, the benefits of being computer based FAR out weigh the few hurtles it takes to get there.

There are many benefits. And I would not want to go back to CDs at this point.

BUT - to assume that every hobby level DJ out there must see the light and run to get a laptop for their next gig is skipping a great many steps.

There are a lot of "amateur DJ nights" happening within the WCS community. People sign up, show up and play for an hour. Those people do not need a computer. In fact, a computer will probably just get in the way.

I don't see competitors moving away from CDs anytime soon.

Yes, I'll say it, if you're a good CD DJ, DJing from a computer WILL make you better... and even more so make your DJing experience more enjoyable.

Well, if you are "good" then it's all just tools.

If you are "new" then there are a lot of pitfalls to using a computer.

Here is a collection of random thoughts about using a computer to DJ. This was intended for hobby level DJs who had been using CDs, and were considering switching to a laptop. I wrote this about 2 years ago.

Random Thoughts about DJing with a computer:


1) Computers can make you a lazy DJ

It takes a lot of effort to stay "in the moment" when you are using a computer. Staying connected to the dancers in the room is vital. With CDs you might be thinking 2 or 3 songs ahead - but the physical act of moving the CDs in and out of the players helps to keep you connected to the moment. With a computer playlist, you could setup 4 hours of music and walk away. That would be a big mistake.

It is common to see DJs create a playlist and reuse it with minor tweaks for several weeks. I think this is the wrong approach. I begin every event with a blank playlist. I build the playlist on-site and based on who is actually in the room. It is more work, but it's worth it. It keeps me in the moment.

There are exceptions - if I know I need a few songs for that evening (birthday, dedication, J&J, etc) I'll build those into a playlist ahead of time. For social dancing, my rule is to build the playlist from scratch. I try to stay no more than 4 to 5 songs ahead when building the playlist.


2) Selecting music is harder

The single hardest part of the transition from CDs to a computer for DJing is the loss of tangible cues and the lack of any physical organization to your music collection.

With CD's there are a lot of "cues" about where songs are, and what songs you have. You might have a "blues CD" or a kewl song "near the front of the case." There might be a good fast song on a "red CD" that's "near the back" of the case. You might have drawn little stars on a CD with good "panic pull" songs. It will surprise you how much you have been relying on the physical layout of your CDs to know your music.

With a computer, you need to know the artist or title of a song to find it. There are things that can make it easier - having the ID3 tags filled out is very important. Comments, ratings, bpm, genre, and album can all be vital clues to finding the song you want to play next.

I can keep about 500 songs in my head at a given time - artist, title, genre, tempo, what the intro and outro sound like, the breaks, the chorus, etc. I'm constantly listening to music that I know I will be playing over the next few weeks to keep my head current. That was probably true when I was using CDs, but I’m much more aware of the limits of my memory now that I have instant access to my entire music collection.

There is hope - once you “get it” and adapt to finding music on a computer, going back to CDs feels so “antiquated” – you’ll miss being able to sort by bpm, or search by rating or genre.


3) Organizing your music never ends

I started ripping my CDs into the computer to make compilations for DJing. I was sick of carrying a CD with one good song on it. My mindset was to organize everything on the computer like CDs - since that is what I was making. And, because I was focused on making "best of" compilations of just my dance music, I only kept the songs on the computer that I wanted on the compilation CDs. That was a BIG mistake.

Originally I ripped everything in at 128 CBR. Then I switched to 192 CBR, then to 192 VBR. Now my standard is 224CBR! At least that makes it easy to find all the songs from each iteration…

After ripping in about 1000 CD's, the CD based organization didn't make as much sense anymore. I was finding all kinds of duplicate songs. I needed songs organized by dance, or genre - not necessarily by CD. This was a big problem for compilation CDs with various artists that I had.

So, I started to "move" songs around - two-steps in a two-step directory, WCS in a WCS directory, party songs in a party directory. Ugh! I should have been using "copy" not "move"...grrrrr.

What to do with "crossover" songs??? “This song is a wcs, and a hustle, and a disco!” I settled on making copies of the song - one in each directory category that made sense.

At this point my music is organized in three big categories: according to the dance, by genre, and by CD. Fortunately hard disc space is cheap.

I'm slowly moving songs from the CD section into the genre and dance sections. It's taking a loooooong time. Every time I do this, it breaks old "playlists" that saved the full path to the song.

Before a weekend event, I'll spend 6 to 10 hours working on the music that I need for that event: checking the ID3 tags - fixing typos, editing as required, removing duplicates, etc, etc.

You might think that you'll just pick a method of organizing your music at the start and stick with it. Maybe you will. You'd be the first person I've ever heard of who was able to do that.


4) Backups are not optional

Get a backup system today and use it!!! I mean it. Don't come whining to me later about how your computer crashed and you lost all your music. I told you to get a backup system and to start using it. :p

When I started ripping my music collection, I bought a DVD burner. 4GB was a lot of space for music back then. Today, you could get 8GB of music on a double layer DVD. That might be more than enough for most of you. Somewhere around 30GB of music I moved to a hard drive based solution.

I use two external hard drives to backup my music - just in case something happens to one of them. About once a month (or after any major changes - like a weekend of ripping CDs) I backup my whole collection.

There is a tool called "robocopy" that will become your BFF - if you have a windows machine.


5) RTFM!!!!

Read the instructions for your DJ program. I can't stress this enough - you must know what all the controls do, and what the "hot keys" are for your program. There is no way to get around this. You must put in the time and read the manual. Oh, and read the manual while you are practicing with the program...

Which brings me to this final thought:

6) Practice, practice, practice.

There is no substitute for knowing what the $!@#$ you're doing. Mankind has been looking for a way around reading the manual for all of recorded history - so far....nadda!

Setup your computer, attach some speakers, start the program and practice. Then practice some more. Oh, did I mention that you need to practice? You need to know how to fade a song early, how to cue up a new song immediately, how to search for songs, how to let the computer automatically start the next song, how to keep the computer from automatically staring the next song, what all the little buttons on the screen do, what all the "hot key" shortcuts for the program...

If you click on a song in the library and press "enter" (even accidentally) what happens? Why would it be important for you to know that ahead of time?

--Stan Graves

[kitkat]

A laptop is a tool, nothing more.

That's right...and it's a tool that I don't think makes DJs so much better that it's worth knocking off a scene's good CD DJs and letting other DJs, ones who still won't be as good even with a laptop, in simply because they're the only ones who can.

I'd hate to be stuck on the dance floor in such a scene.

[Mr Awesomer]

That's right...and it's a tool that I don't think makes DJs so much better that it's worth knocking off a scene's good CD DJs and letting other DJs, ones who still won't be as good even with a laptop, in simply because they're the only ones who can.

You apparently missed my clarification of that and you seem to be taking this WAY to personally.

[patrik]

I guess you still can buy portable CD players, and they connect the same way as most laptops, that is, via the 3.5 millimeter audio plug.

That's a solution too

[GemZombie]

We're talking about Swing DJs here. I agree with Reuben on this one. There's no swing DJ so good at DJing by CD that they can't be done without.

Event organizers can save time/money/effort by just accepting Digital DJs.

Having said that, I have 2 DJs in Atlanta here that I still haul my CD rig in from time to time for so they can DJ. They've both been promising to go Digital soon though, and they are nice people, so I'll accommodate their CD needs.

I'm still adamant about Digital DJs using the proper software/equipment though, and unfortunately there are far too many DJs that don't. I'll alienate half of you by telling you all once again how bad iTunes sucks. Using iTunes/winamp/Media player is like riding around in a Datsun Pick-up truck held together with Duct Tape. Sure it works and will get you there, but it's ugly, needs constant maintenance, and slapped together things tend to fall apart under heavy usage.

[patrik]

I'll alienate half of you by telling you all once again how bad iTunes sucks. Using iTunes/winamp/Media player is like riding around in a Datsun Pick-up truck held together with Duct Tape. Sure it works and will get you there, but it's ugly, needs constant maintenance, and slapped together things tend to fall apart under heavy usage.

Really?

Like somebody said in an earlier post, isn't this supposed to be fun?
Why bother discussing something that really is not a problem? I can't see what the problem is anyway.
I know one thing though, if the dancers are happy dancing they don't care if the music is played by iTunes or an old CD player.

[kitkat]

There's no swing DJ so good at DJing by CD that they can't be done without.

Taken nationally or even regionally, what you said is true.

But in many specific scenes, what you said is SO not true. In many scenes, if you cut out the people who have not had any reason in their lives to spend their non-allocated hours of time each week and their precious twentysomething earnings on a laptop, you'll have only 1, maybe 2 decent DJs left.

Due to potential DJs' jobs, lives, etc. 1 or 2 probably isn't enough to fill out the number of regular DJed nights the swing scene can sustain with decent music.



If you want a lot of decent music in town at whatever DJed events there are, you have to have more like 4 or 5 decent DJs who are available several times a month.



So I guess if it works for your scene because you have that many regularly available and decent DJs who use laptops, then okay, it'll just suck to be an out-of-town DJ who wanted to play for that scene but can't. Or if it works for your event because you have that many out-of-town decent DJs coming who use laptops, then okay, it'll just suck to be an in-town DJ who wanted to play for that event but can't. I can understand.



But don't encourage people in the scenes where eliminating the local DJs who play decent music is not a good plan to get any bad ideas! :-Þ

[fredo]

I'm still adamant about Digital DJs using the proper software/equipment though, and unfortunately there are far too many DJs that don't. I'll alienate half of you by telling you all once again how bad iTunes sucks. Using iTunes/winamp/Media player is like riding around in a Datsun Pick-up truck held together with Duct Tape. Sure it works and will get you there, but it's ugly, needs constant maintenance, and slapped together things tend to fall apart under heavy usage.

I don't see what the big deal is with using itunes/winamp/media player. Sure, its working between separate software that wasn't intended to be used together, but I don't see that as a huge problem. What does "ugly" have to do with anything anyway? Maintenance? What maintenance?

I've heard of music snobs, but DJ software snobs?

[patrik]

I've heard of music snobs, but DJ software snobs?

DJ software snobs, that is the term.

GemZombie

I would like to know why using iTunes is bad? Please tell me. I bet nobody can hear the difference on a crowded dancefloor.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

I would like to know why using iTunes is bad? Please tell me. I bet nobody can hear the difference on a crowded dancefloor.

Professional tools for professional results.

IMO, the minimum set of capabilities for DJ software is:

1) Cross fade between songs.
2) Alter the pitch/tempo of the song in real time.
3) "Cue" a song to skip a long intro.
4) "Preview" a song while another is playing.
5) Search able playlist (preferably by ID3 tag fields)

This is my minimum list of requirements. Think about the mechanics of DJing with a dual deck CD player. Why would any DJ want to "give up" capability when moving to a computer? Shouldn't the computer provide more capability?

Can a "good" DJ "work around" any of these things that are missing? Probably - but it will alter the performance.

Can you hear the difference on the dance floor? I can.

When song's can not be "cued" past a long intro, I hear long intros.

When people can't cue, I hear the difference in song pairings that don't match. I also hear a more conservative song selection - old favorites and well known songs.

When two song's can not be faded, I hear long(er) amounts of dead air between songs (yes, there is a running debate about pauses between songs...sometimes it's OK, other times I think it's annoying).

When mp3s are played through a laptop soundcard I don't hear the dynamic range - everything sounds like it was recorded with 1940's and 1950's technology (I realize that for a Lindy music that might not be a big issue... ).

iTunes and iPods and laptop sound cards are designed to sound "good" when you are playing through little ear buds....not on pro-sound gear. Dedicated sub woofers require more bass content than era buds, or PC speakers. Laptop soundcards are designed to take advantage of the uneven response of laptop speakers. Pro sound equipment that has been setup to have a flat response will show all of those flaws in the laptop.

I will grant that most people can not hear the difference - until they actually listen. I do some A/B/C comparisons of CDs and laptop built in sound cards, and good laptop sound cards a couple times a year. Hearing the "same" song played three different ways removes any doubt in their minds. Take a song on CD and rip it into your computer. Then, using a good sound system, play the song from the CD, from iTunes (or whatever) through the on board sound card, and through a good external sound card.

5 or 6 years ago I had a pretty good 16bit soundcard in my computer that I used to play music. Then I upgraded to a 24 bit sound card. I would have never realized how bad the 16bit card sucked, until I head the same song, played with the same software, on the same speakers.

So, can you hear the difference on a dance floor?

--Stan Graves

[patrik]

SoundInMotionDJ, I don't disagree with you, iTunes does have some limitations, but I still think it is good enough for standard DJ-ing.
It suits me fine, I have to give my playlists a little bit more thought, that's all.

But still, I think most dancers really don't care if a song is played using the CD player or the computer. What's being played is much more important.
A bad song is a bad song regardless the way it is being played.

[LindyChef]

1) You may like it, but I don't like crossfading. I like to keep a nice couple of beats in between the songs to create some space for people to thank their current partners and find a new one. I feel that it also creates a bit of tension on the dancefloor as well as the dancers wait for a new song. And you can find free plugins that can add these capabilities for most media players.

2) I've never seen the need for tempo alteration for a swing DJ, but you can easily find free plugins that alter tempo/pitch for most free media players.

3) I prefer to create custom edits of songs rather than cueing.

4) This can be done with a multi-soundcard setup quite easily.

5) This is easily done with iTunes, WinAMP and pretty much any other software.

And as far as hearing the difference goes, it's one thing to sit around and play some output on a system in a listening environment, but that's a bit artificial. As far as the dancefloor goes, when you're in venues that typically have boomy sound, poor acoustics, less than ideal systems (aka cheapest piece of equipment available) and full of dancers dancing, it's a lot less noticeable.

[Mr Awesomer]

IMO, the minimum set of capabilities for DJ software is:

1) Cross fade between songs.
2) Alter the pitch/tempo of the song in real time.
3) "Cue" a song to skip a long intro.
4) "Preview" a song while another is playing.
5) Search able playlist (preferably by ID3 tag fields)

1) While I understand you need for such a function, it’s completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ... no matter what their taste of "Lindy Hop" may be.
2) Again, completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ.
3) Can be done with itunes or winamp.
4) Can be done with winamp... and I've heard people have a method of doing this with itunes.
5) Can be done with itunes or winamp.