Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

[KevinSchaper]

Yeah, I guess way off topic...but you know, this is at least a more neutral site than yehoodi or jj.

Good points. We have that distinguising problem in eugene, the local westies called their club just the "Eugene Swing Club" and always advertised their stuff as just "Swing" .. and I think once you're a more advanced dancer and you can dance with all kinds of swing dancers, that kind of generalization is a good thing, but for beginners it's usually not wha they're looking for. (which is, to be honest, probably zoot suits and suspenders...)

anyway, I don't have a particularly fiery opinion about this stuff, so I feel safe commenting. :)

I guess that's kind of the idea behind the whole vernacular jazz dance thing too - it gives us an umbrella term so we don't have use lindy to apply to stuff that's pretty unrelated (like shag, to use an example that wont offend anyone :) ), but is still basically done by people who are lindy hoppers.. "Vernacular Jazz Dancer" just doesn't *quite* roll off the tongue.

Personally, I dont mind the term swing dancer, I like to think it gives me the option to, as I feel like it or the music dictates or whatever, steal stuff from everything from 20's charleston to carolina shag and west coast..

but I can also, if the music dictates and I feel like it, try to be totally traditionalist.. maybe not succeed, but it's fun to try..

No doubt though - it sounds awfully perjorative to tell people they're swing dancers not lindy hoppers.

[Mr Awesomer]

We can't label what you do Ron till you at least learn how to dance. HAHAHA.

[yedancer]

Incidentally, last night, when this Lindyhop DJ played Lindyhop music for Lindyhop dancers last night at our local Lindyhop venue in San Diego called The Firehouse, I played two Barbara Morrison songs and one Mora's song. The people Lindyhopping looked, to my poor uneducated, non-classic eyes, to be doing the same Lindyhop moves to both artists. Of course, a bunch of people were also Balboa-ing (Balbing? Balling?) to Moras as well. More people Lindyhopped to Barbara. So I'd say, "preserve Lindyhop--play Barbara Morrison".

Ron, since when is Lindy Hop spelled as one word? And by the way, the fact that people were dancing the same to two completely different types of music should tell you something.

[yedancer]

I think the issue is that the-dance-many-people-are-doing-nowadays is not what they were doing back in the day and calling "Lindy Hop." Lindy Hop has evolved since then into something different.

It's like Star Trek. Deep Space 9 and Voyager are two completely different shows. It would be wrong to watch Voyager and say, "I'm watching Deep Space 9." Sure, they're both Star Trek, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different. Likewise, Lindy Hop and the-dance-many-people-are-doing-nowadays are both Swing Dancing, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different.

Man talk about a bad analogy.

[Nate Dogg]

Yeah, I guess way off topic...but you know, this is at least a more neutral site than yehoodi or jj.

Good points. We have that distinguising problem in eugene, the local westies called their club just the "Eugene Swing Club" and always advertised their stuff as just "Swing" .. and I think once you're a more advanced dancer and you can dance with all kinds of swing dancers, that kind of generalization is a good thing, but for beginners it's usually not wha they're looking for. (which is, to be honest, probably zoot suits and suspenders...)

Locally, the lindy hop club is called the Austin Swing Syndicate. The Westie club is called the Heart of Texas Whip Club. The long running joke amongst ourselves is that we should be called the Austin Lindy Syndicate. But, that would mean losing our beloved A.S.S acronym

[Lawrence]

It's like Star Trek. Deep Space 9 and Voyager are two completely different shows. It would be wrong to watch Voyager and say, "I'm watching Deep Space 9." Sure, they're both Star Trek, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different. Likewise, Lindy Hop and the-dance-many-people-are-doing-nowadays are both Swing Dancing, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different.

Yes, a bad analogy, out of which the only salient point I draw is that you're watching all kinds of "Neo-sci-fi geek crap" and need to try watching something interesting in comparison... like McGyver.

[Lawrence]

Locally, the lindy hop club is called the Austin Swing Syndicate. The Westie club is called the Heart of Texas Whip Club. The long running joke amongst ourselves is that we should be called the Austin Lindy Syndicate. But, that would mean losing our beloved A.S.S acronym

Correction: locally in Austin, the lindy hop club is called "Austin Lindy Hop." The Syndicate does cater to "Swingers," and thus is aptly named.

[yedancer]

Yes, a bad analogy, out of which the only salient point I draw is that you're watching all kinds of "Neo-sci-fi geek crap" and need to try watching something interesting in comparison... like McGyver.

Actually I've probably watched more episodes of McGuyver than Star Trek. It's been quite practical too. Last week my car broke down, so I built a new one with a some yarn, a can of soda, and a TV remote control.

[Ron]

And by the way, the fact that people were dancing the same to two completely different types of music should tell you something.

Yes, it does tell me something. It tells me that fundamentally, the dance that people were doing to both songs is still Lindy Hop. I may have finally learned to spell what we dance, Jeremy, maybe you can finally learn to say it... try it: "Lindy Hop".

[SpuzBal]

It's like Star Trek. Deep Space 9 and Voyager are two completely different shows. It would be wrong to watch Voyager and say, "I'm watching Deep Space 9." Sure, they're both Star Trek, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different. Likewise, Lindy Hop and the-dance-many-people-are-doing-nowadays are both Swing Dancing, they're both based on the same concepts, but the details are different.

Hahaha, that was awesome.

[SirScratchAlot]

When are you guys going to stop with the "its not Lindy hop" stuff? I can do 3 swingouts and a circle to Barbara Morrison just fine, thank you. How come you persist with such silly statements? Do you really think by telling people they aren't doing Lindy hop that somehow you are going to convert more dancers to classic music? Personally, I think you'll just piss them off.

I think it's healthy - I mean, not the being mean about it part, but the distinction.. I never got why some dances have these uber subtle differences that make them entirely different, like bal and single-shag, but lindy has this massive range that includes everything done by somebody who's first dance class was a lindy hop class.

Why not move towards the broader term swing dance?

I mean, it lets preservationist preserve, and modernists innovate, and we all get to be swing dancers together.

damn, that was good. but I might also add, it's not nessesarily about new vs old music at all, just because it's new music doesn;t mean you cannot Lindy Hop to it, and for that matter even swing music, however I do feel you must be able to project the dance in it's same light, by that I mean the same energy,excitment , wildness whatever the words are to describe it.

Unfortunatly, when I or we think of new , slower jazzy music comes to define "the modernist" or "The innovators" which pigeon holes those dancers by changing the dance to fit the music.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for an example I do what I consider Lindy Hop not much different then what you see in some Movies , however we'll do it to NEW music such as Hip Hop , and it fits it perfectly, the only thing that has really changed is the music, the dance remains exciting ,vigorous and show stopping just it was during the 30's.
I compare this dancing to that at the Lindy Groove, and I'm sorry but there is one hell of a difference, and generally speaking what's being done at the Lindy Groove surely isnt "the Lindy Hop".

Call it whatever we all want.... Lindy Groovin, or swing dancing, it's still great fun.....

[SirScratchAlot]

BAH!

mating call for a sheep? hahaha Baaaaahhhhhhh bahhhhhhh

BaaaaAAaaaa there happy... < walks away with her sheep in tow>

t-

wait! don't take em all...

[SirScratchAlot]

I never got why some dances have these uber subtle differences that make them entirely different, like bal and single-shag, but lindy has this massive range that includes everything done by somebody who's first dance class was a lindy hop class.

Why not move towards the broader term swing dance?

First, marketing. Doing so distinguishes "us" from the Neo Swing, zoot-suit "Swing-twits"

ok so push em away by being better then they are? or cooler? if your seriously trying to promote a specific dance called "the Lindy Hop" then I agree with you to Market it just as you say. We are the swing scene, We are the part of the same click as those people you refer to as Twits. Embrace them and educate them and hopefull they will come around to like music we all like, and as far as a dress code, it beats kippy belts and Capezio's.(sarcasim)

that most people outside of the scene irreversibly, categorically, and negatively associate with "Swing Dance."

possibly , but primarily to non dancers that are too cool to dance in the first place, but swing dancing last time I checked was pretty damn popular across the USA IN ALL it's forms....

I understand what your saying, but I think it's better to do thing because of the posistives rather then to do things because of the negatives...

Ryan Francois inspired me to do so long ago to distinguish "us" from the modern-day jitterbuggers (Swing-twits) who threaten to kill the dance by diluting its beauty, form, and diversity,

there ya go, ego. and who is diluting it now????HAHAHA gotcha....
I gurantee Ryan wasn't talking about Groove....I'll ask him tommorrow or the next day and re-post his thoughts on what to call groove dance since his opinion is warranted.

The term “swing dance” has a negative connotation, even for me, to the point that even I would feel embarrassed to tell people that I travel across the country to “swing dance,”

If your acually going to go and Lindy Hop then by all means thats what your going to do. But your still swing dancing, what form? Lindy Hop...right?

Using “Lindy Hop” instead of “Swing Dance” distinguishes “us” from the Ballroom scene, not just the zoot-suit, neo-swing twits.

Ok, you like to call people Twits...but most of the people out today dancing started as a Twit....

Second, it is not intellectually dishonest to do so. “Lindy Hop” is not limited to just swing-out, circle, and swing out from closed done to the 1,2,3&4,5,6,7&8 rhythmic pattern.

Obviously, this is where it becomes debatable. I don't know what you do...however this is where the grey area starts.

Where do you draw the line between more advanced “Bal” or “Shag” moves and “Lindy Hop” moves?

it's not that hard once you learn them...

and if the swing-out can change its rhythmic patterns to fit whatever rhythmic accent you want to make while dancing to the point where its nothing like a basic swing-out,

yes, but subtract the swing out from the dance and what do ya got? I like this specific subject of discussion, it's fasinating and it really shows the parralel to the music that originated it. Take away the structure and the music changes , as so the dance. this would be cool to discuss further ....if you wanted.

then I don’t see the harm or dishonesty in including the basic bal, charleston, or shag step in “Lindy Hop.”

the rhythm in these dances is all the same so
I agree 100% as long as your still capturing that same essence, check out the harvest Moon ball footage, you'll see additions such as those mentioned however they are turned into Lindy Hop, not Lindy Hop turned into them, there is a difference, in energy and style.

Moreover, the "Charleston" that "we" do to Swing music differs enough from the "original" Charleston dance that I consider "our" Charleston (Lindy-charleston) to more honestly be a subset of Lindy Hop, not the actual, separate dance done to choppy, stacato jazz of the 1920s.

oh goody history, Lindy Hop "was" a 20's dance. The "look" may be different but the Charleston energy, excitement and timing remains identical. so the dance evolved capuring it's essence and not losing anything.

Third, (and least persuasively) I believe that the term "Lindy Hop" predated "Swing Dance."

Incorrect, swing dance came first. 1910....is my earliest written account.

If anything, Swing Dance as we know it (6-count East Coast Swing) evolved from Lindy Hop. (I could be mistaken about this point).

correct just as western swing,west coast swing, neo -swing,bar swing and so many other dances that fall under the umbrella of Swing.
put on Basies "shout and feel it" and one form of swing called the Lindy Hop will always steal the show....

good post Lawrence, keep em coming!

[main_stem]

Using ?Lindy Hop? instead of ?Swing Dance? distinguishes ?us? from the Ballroom scene, not just the zoot-suit, neo-swing twits.

Ok, you like to call people Twits...but most of the people out today dancing started as a Twit....

I was one. LOL I actually started dancing because my friends had a band, Blue Plate Special, back in college. It was Chico, CA what else you gonna do. Strangely enough these are the same guys that gave me lots of Basie and Duke to listen to.

-Kevin

[yedancer]

I was one. LOL I actually started dancing because my friends had a band, Blue Plate Special, back in college.

Blue Plate Special rules!