Non swing - when and how?

[gatorgal]

Not, just a North Texas thing... I really had to fight the "Swing Kid" perception when I first started faking my WC at their dances. I think the snobiness comes from the fact that Lindy Hoppers tend to be younger and they treat that group as "kids" since their demo is on the upside.

Well, a lot of it is ability. I don't go to WCS events to "fake it"; I just don't go. That just seems discourteous to me.

Kalman

I think I misspoke here because I was trying to be sarcastic... basically when I was first learning WCS I would say I was "faking it" because it was so over my head.

I'm getting a little better at it and can honestly say that I now do a really bad WCS. But it is my authentically bad WCS.

Just had to clear that up.

Tina

[mousethief]

Naw, I know you and you're not a *problem child.*

However, I singled out your post because we are full-up with "Westie Hoppers" who often do not take classes in either dance. Often, they're arrogant as hell and sometimes do not connect with partners of either genre. They're going to lead/follow whatever they want - often with mad writhing and wiggling - and I think that's crap.

If you want to incorporate one into the other, that's okeh but stop trying to develop a freaking dance form on the social floor with a partner!!![/rant]

Kalman

[LindyChef]

When Frankie has talked about stealing moves from other dances, he incorporated them into his lindy. They did not fundamentally alter the way he danced, nor they demand a change in the music that was being played. I see Frankie going "I want something like that in my dancing. I just don't want to dance like that."

There's room to add material to Lindy Hop; in fact, I'll go as far saying materials needs to be added to Lindy Hop - just not at the expense of the original dance and the music.

I was going to say something in reply to you Jeremy, but Kalman said it for me.

[julius]

That's a pretty cool distinction that I hadn't realized before.

So is it fair to say that some people are incorporating other dances into lindy hop, but they are retaining the flavor of the other dance instead of assimilating it into lindy hop?

(I'm only generalizing massively to bug Greg. heh heh heh.)

I'd say that's true, and then I'd go way overboard and say this is happening because these people aren't familiar with the roots of the dance, the spirit and attitude as well as the technique and look. And then I'd ignore the life preserver thrown at me and say that THAT is because the music we're dancing to no longer reflects that particular time period in the history of the dance.

But I am not drowning totally because I don't think the music should reflect only that time period. I think MORE of it should, but not at the peril of ignoring more recent history.

[yedancer]

When Frankie has talked about stealing moves from other dances, he incorporated them into his lindy. They did not fundamentally alter the way he danced, nor they demand a change in the music that was being played. I see Frankie going "I want something like that in my dancing. I just don't want to dance like that."

There's room to add material to Lindy Hop; in fact, I'll go as far saying materials needs to be added to Lindy Hop - just not at the expense of the original dance and the music.

I was going to say something in reply to you Jeremy, but Kalman said it for me.

I totally agree with what he said.

[yedancer]

Perhaps one good example would be the one bit of film footage of the Congaroos. They seem to be incorporating stuff from other dances, but in a decidedly lindy fashion.

[Nate Dogg]

That's a pretty cool distinction that I hadn't realized before.

So is it fair to say that some people are incorporating other dances into lindy hop, but they are retaining the flavor of the other dance instead of assimilating it into lindy hop?

(I'm only generalizing massively to bug Greg. heh heh heh.)

I'd say that's true, and then I'd go way overboard and say this is happening because these people aren't familiar with the roots of the dance, the spirit and attitude as well as the technique and look. And then I'd ignore the life preserver thrown at me and say that THAT is because the music we're dancing to no longer reflects that particular time period in the history of the dance.

But I am not drowning totally because I don't think the music should reflect only that time period. I think MORE of it should, but not at the peril of ignoring more recent history.

When talking about incorporating moves from other dances, a few people mention tango, that made me think of ochos. Perhaps I am offbase, but that seems to be a tango derived move that is done by lindy hoppers from time to time. When done competently and with musicality, I think it works. Based on watching others and doing it myself.

I think for the most part, if a dancer's main dance is lindy, he or she is likely to have lindy flavor, simply because that is how they dance to begin with and all their dancing has that flavor, they don't know any better (a similar example is the "lindy in a slot" that you see lindy folks do at WCS events). The more experienced and competent a dancer is at multiple forms, they harder it might be for them to keep the flavors separate (if they even cared to).

I am also thinking of the Argentine tango, not the international or american style.

[mousethief]

When Frankie has talked about stealing moves from other dances, he incorporated them into his lindy. They did not fundamentally alter the way he danced, nor they demand a change in the music that was being played. I see Frankie going "I want something like that in my dancing. I just don't want to dance like that."

There's room to add material to Lindy Hop; in fact, I'll go as far saying materials needs to be added to Lindy Hop - just not at the expense of the original dance and the music.

I was going to say something in reply to you Jeremy, but Kalman said it for me.

I totally agree with what he said.

IN YOUR FACE DON WEST!!!

*iggy shuffle*
*iggy shuffle*

Kalman

[mousethief]

Julius is dead on about the music too. I'm not a stickler for genre; I think if something swings, it's pretty much dead on. I don't see a difference between a good song from 1962 and one from 1932. However, I think too many liberties have been taken with regards to what swings and what don't - both by artists and DJs.

In this, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

When I get new music, I have a few tests.

• Does it make me want to swingout?
  When I swingout, is it easy?
  Can I do more with it than a few basic patterns?
  Does it allow me to do crazy Al Minns stuff to it?
  Can I do bal?
  Better yet, can I do long-legged Charleston (tempo considered)?
  Would Frankie dance to it?
  Put against a swing era piece - does it still swing?
  Swing is joyous - is it joyous?

I can do all of those in a few seconds. If I really have to work at it, it doesn't meet my criteria of swing. But then, I always refer back to a bastardized quote from Reuben (paraphrasing):

"Ever notice how no one ever debates whether Count Basie's "One O' Clock Jump" is a Lindy Hop song?"

Kalman

[julius]

I think for the most part, if a dancer's main dance is lindy, he or she is likely to have lindy flavor, simply because that is how they dance to begin with and all their dancing has that flavor, they don't know any better

But see, if the person doing (new move) has "modern lindy" flavor (i.e. the dance that we all agree has large overtones of other dances, primarily west coast) ... then what is the flavor imparted to the (new move)?

I know squat about west coast, but since west coast seems like such an incredibly wide-ranging, inclusive dance these days, it seems like you can add anything to west coast and it is west coast. I hear top WCS competitors are doing balboa in comps now. I don't get that same feeling when watching lindy hop. Some stuff just seems out of place.

As far as this particular example (not that we should get caught up on minutiae like this) I think the lindy ochos were actually ripped off from west coasters who were doing ochos ripped off from tango.

By the way I'm not sure we're thinking of the same move. In tango an ocho is simply a side to side walk with a 180 degree pivot on every step. What I am thinking of is the leg lifted high, swirling in air move whose tango name I now forget. That has never said "lindy hop" to me, no matter who has done it. I'm sure somebody could make it look lindy hop if they crouched real low, trucked with the free hand, and bounced while doing it. Or something...

[Nate Dogg]

Ochos ...
By the way I'm not sure we're thinking of the same move. In tango an ocho is simply a side to side walk with a 180 degree pivot on every step. What I am thinking of is the leg lifted high, swirling in air move whose tango name I now forget. That has never said "lindy hop" to me, no matter who has done it. I'm sure somebody could make it look lindy hop if they crouched real low, trucked with the free hand, and bounced while doing it. Or something...

Yeah, I was thinking of more ground ochos, without flicks.

Laura Malloy taught Ochos awhile back. She looked like lindyhopper while doing them. I am sure there are example of people who look more like WCS dancers.

Without videoclips, it is kind of hard to debate too much. My image is of people doing it well, you are probably thinking of the weaker examples. Both are probably accurate.

I also think/agree that adapting an ocho straight from Argentine tango and adding it to one's lindy is probably going to look better than having the step go through the WCS filter. I know a few dancers who lindy and tango, but don't do any West Coast.

[Shanabanana]

What I am thinking of is the leg lifted high, swirling in air move whose tango name I now forget. That has never said "lindy hop" to me, no matter who has done it.

Yeah, I was thinking of more ground ochos, without flicks.

Are you talking about boleos? If so, it would be hard to get a lindy hopper to do it right unless they had tango training. They are hard to follow (and I assume lead) without turning off some big lindy techniques.

Otherwise, not sure what you're speaking of.

[LindyChef]

I hear top WCS competitors are doing balboa in comps now.

[sarcasm]
Just because you can bal to 90 BPM hip hop music, doesn't mean you should.
[/sarcasm]

On a more serious note, I'm really glad to see all of the agreement (in principle at least ) about the spirit of lindy hop and how it needs to grow and stay true to its roots at the same time ...

Kalman, I like your litmus test on what swings. I know every dancer out there has their own opinion on what swings on what doesn't but in the end we're always going to be having those debates on what swings and what doesn't. At least there's One O'Clock Jump and Two O'Clock Jump... and Jumpin' at the Woodside

[CafeSavoy]

My personal beef is that many tango, salsa, whatever moves were designed for a specific kind of music and do not flow into lindy hop. When Frankie has talked about stealing moves from other dances, he incorporated them into his lindy. They did not fundamentally alter the way he danced, nor they demand a change in the music that was being played. I see Frankie going "I want something like that in my dancing. I just don't want to dance like that."

There's room to add material to Lindy Hop; in fact, I'll go as far saying materials needs to be added to Lindy Hop - just not at the expense of the original dance and the music. Adding endless body rolls, *burning looks* (I love saying that) and choreographed sequences to Lindy Hop doesn't add to the dance, it fundamentally alters the dance - if you have to dance differently to accomodate them.

Even Natalie and Yuval have stated that they threw out many of their moves because they didn't swing and they're pretty borderline as it is.

Kalman

It's funny that tango keeps getting mentioned and yet there is a step called tango, and which i think came from Frankie. Not that the step looks anything like tango but rather that lindy hop was all about stealing moves from other movement arts. Funny that you all should bust on choreagraphy when much of the performance side of lindy was about choreagraphed sequences. Or perhaps you think all the sequences with Whitey Lindyhoppers were totally free style dancing. Granted we have to keep true to the music, but if we start putting in all these technical requirements, aren't we just another ballroom dance?

[yedancer]

lindy hop was all about stealing moves from other movement arts. Funny that you all should bust on choreagraphy when much of the performance side of lindy was about choreagraphed sequences. Or perhaps you think all the sequences with Whitey Lindyhoppers were totally free style dancing. Granted we have to keep true to the music, but if we start putting in all these technical requirements, aren't we just another ballroom dance?

You are right on. However, it should be noted that they when they stole moves, they took the basic look of that move and then made it a lindy hop move. It did not look the same as the original. In contrast, I see many current "innovators" taking moves from other dances and doing them pretty much exactly the way they are in the original. That sucks (to me).

And no, there should not ever be any technical requirements. However, on the same hand, there should be standards. And if I was in charge, one of those standards would be that lindy hop should not contain elements that make the dance look too much like other dances. Unless it involves mocking that dance. Then it's fine.

Of course, I'm not in charge.