Too much groove for me, lately

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djstarr · #106 Post by **djstarr** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:57 pm

At one of Tonya's Jitterbug Weekends (I think it was last November) she brought Sugar Sullivan out. She had also met a gentleman named Jesse Middleton (I think) who is the same guy that Falty is talking about - he lives in the Seattle area. Tonya asked Jesse to come out on Saturday night and join in a question and answer session with Sugar. Falty's story in the above post is spot-on and I think Tonya published the interview on her video tape of the weekend.

djstarr · #107 Post by **djstarr** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:03 pm

julius wrote:
djstarr wrote: I was talking more about the person who goes out once a week at most (more like a couple of times a month) because it's fun to go out dancing, but it is a casual hobby. I have several friends in this category, and they are much more drawn to blues/groove than to vintage.
So why is it that some people who dance as much or more than I do still don't/can't/won't dance fast? I wasn't trying to refute your statement. I wanted to show that lack of exposure to the music (this is where it relates to DJing, Ron) is a major factor in people's preferences. If you don't know what you're missing, you never have a chance to decide for yourself.

I don't know. Maybe they don't like to sweat (especially if they are dressed up)? Maybe they just ate a huge meal and don't want indigestion. Maybe it's possible to like to listen to fast music and not want to dance to it. And sorry to bring this up, but LA is full of folks that have been exposed to plenty of fast music but prefer Lindy Groove (at least that's my impression based on my visits and listening to folks who live there - would you agree?)

Even though there is a great core of folks here in Seattle who love fast vintage music there is definitely a solid group that doesn't like it and won't come out to venues that are known to play fast music. It's a personal preference and being a good DJ comes down to knowing your audience --- if they really have never been exposed to it then it's a good idea to throw it out there and let folks make the choice.

However, if you know they've heard it and don't want to dance then I don't think you should force them.

Abdel · #108 Post by **Abdel** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:30 pm

djstarr, I could not agree with you any more.

LindyChef · #109 Post by **LindyChef** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:52 pm

mousethief wrote:
LindyChef wrote:
mousethief wrote:You don't need training to dance fast. You just have to want to dance. If you don't believe me, put on some RCR or BBVD one night and watch the kids go nuts. They don't need lindy training to dance to it any more than I need classes in Hip Hop to dance to Snoop Dogg.
OMG. Now I have this huge urge to go to some top 40 club, put into BBVD, and watch the spasms ensue.
And that attitude, ladies and gentlemen is why we've scared off all the newcomers that want to dance fast and get good at it. We've made it "less than" and undesirable.

Worse, we've made it theatre - a place where we can laugh at the neophytes for being tragically un-cool.

Kalman

Kalman, you totally misinterpreted what I said. I was making a joke a pop culture's limited understanding of swing music. It would be different if I said if I wanted to do that at some sort of swing venue, but I didn't.

If I was going to introduce neophytes to fast lindy, it definitely wouldn't be to BBVD or RCR or any other "neoswing" material that became a forgotten piece of pop culture years ago. Instead, I'd break out stuff like Ben Charest's theme to The Triplets of Bellevue (something that's new and energetic), LCJO's version of Big John's Special or Count Basie's Swingin' the Blues (stuff that's really swingin' and much more "classic"), or Chick Webb's Lindyhopper's Delight ...

In fact, this gives me an idea for a thread.

Greg Avakian · #110 Post by **Greg Avakian** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm

Actually Julius, these endless debates are brought on by people who aren't happy with the scene. They want to "wake people up" to what's "really" going on. Anyone can be guilty of this; you just have to define something and refuse to see another POV.

That's where all the chatter about "agenda" comes from.
I'm sick of the complaining and whining. I'm sick of people telling the scene what we all can or can't do. I know what I like -just like most casual dancers know what they like. People may not care about who wrote or performed a particular piece of music, but they get out on the dance floor and dance to it if they like it. If the event is big enough, they will even leave the room...

What Brenda said, and the examples she presented, are simple observations, not agenda bias.

mousethief · #111 Post by **mousethief** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:12 am

Swifty wrote:
mousethief wrote:How the DJs approach the crowd for one. How the DJs build the night and what kind of energy they try to build for another. In some ways, you could even argue the validity of Neoswing in the current dance scene.
Let me just state for the record that neo-swing does not equal fast and fast does not equal neo-swing.

Understood, but that's a DJs acknowledgement and not what the newcomers might think.

Kalman

mousethief · #112 Post by **mousethief** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:22 am

LindyChef wrote:...

I've watched DJ after DJ put on a Neo piece just to laugh at the newbies. In Dallas and beyond. Put on a Neo piece at a mixed venue and watch the "real" dancers and the "new" dancers and tell me who's "really" dancing.

Kalman

main_stem · #113 Post by **main_stem** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:25 am

Greg Avakian wrote:That's where all the chatter about "agenda" comes from.
I'm sick of the complaining and whining. I'm sick of people telling the scene what we all can or can't do. I know what I like -just like most casual dancers know what they like. People may not care about who wrote or performed a particular piece of music, but they get out on the dance floor and dance to it if they like it. If the event is big enough, they will even leave the room...
.

Reminds me of a quote I read, (Paraphrasing since I don't have a photographic memory) "Peopel in general don't care whether you flat the 7th or have aranged it in so and so a manner, just as long as you make it an ass shaker"

-Kevin

julius · #114 Post by **julius** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:19 am

Greg Avakian wrote:Actually Julius, these endless debates are brought on by people who aren't happy with the scene. They want to "wake people up" to what's "really" going on. Anyone can be guilty of this; you just have to define something and refuse to see another POV.

I think sometimes the unhappy people have a point. Not that anybody does in this particular instance, but sometimes.

Sometimes I go to a dance and I envision it as a computer game like Theme Park, only it's called Lindy Venue, and some of the people have little thought bubbles over their heads with a heart in it, and some have bubbles with a thundercloud in it, and some are puking in the corner because the ride was too violent, and ... err, anyway. It would be a nicer world if we all kept our opinions to ourselves, but thank god we don't. Well, some of us anyway.

paul13 · #115 Post by **paul13** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:26 pm

i think the best thing about forums like this is that people CAN give their opinions. i think holding things in just makes it worse (envision a pressure cooker that never blows off steam"

so i have to disagree with the statement regarding the world being a better place if we kept our opinions to ourselves. i think we need to talk more before the pressure builds up enough until it bursts.

just my opinion

paul

yedancer · #116 Post by **yedancer** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:06 pm

mousethief wrote: Put on a Neo piece at a mixed venue and watch the "real" dancers and the "new" dancers and tell me who's "really" dancing.

Kalman

I don't get it.

Abdel · #117 Post by **Abdel** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:09 pm

Neither do I?

mousethief · #118 Post by **mousethief** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:25 am

Ah, I could explain it but why bother?

Kalman

Matthew · #119 Post by **Matthew** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:36 am

mousethief wrote:I've watched DJ after DJ put on a Neo piece just to laugh at the newbies. In Dallas and beyond. Put on a Neo piece at a mixed venue and watch the "real" dancers and the "new" dancers and tell me who's "really" dancing.

Kalman

I agree completely! I've often seen that type of thing happen, and not just in swing venues.

Lawrence · #120 Post by **Lawrence** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:14 pm

djstarr wrote:
julius wrote:So why is it that some people who dance as much or more than I do still don't/can't/won't dance fast? I wasn't trying to refute your statement. I wanted to show that lack of exposure to the music (this is where it relates to DJing, Ron) is a major factor in people's preferences. If you don't know what you're missing, you never have a chance to decide for yourself.
I don't know. Maybe they don't like to sweat (especially if they are dressed up)? Maybe they just ate a huge meal and don't want indigestion. Maybe it's possible to like to listen to fast music and not want to dance to it. And sorry to bring this up, but LA is full of folks that have been exposed to plenty of fast music but prefer Lindy Groove (at least that's my impression based on my visits and listening to folks who live there - would you agree?)

Not to take the bait too much, but I like to listen to fast music much more than dance to it. A large part of the reason has to do with learning to refine your dancing to slower music to give you time to do it right instead of just flopping through it. Then people get comfortable with the slower pace, and just don't bother to push it because they only have so much interest in perfecting every aspect of their dancing.

Slower music also allows for more time to improvise, as well as gives more movement options for improvisitation.

That said, I defeinitely agree that solely dancing to slower music creates the same sort of bastardized dancing as solely flopping around to hyperactively fast music. Indeed, the Fast Lindy session of Lindy II that I'm teaching right now is bringing that point to light: the process of making their dancing efficient enough to dance to fast tempos helps weed out some of those bad habits and making the student's dancing to SLOWER music look MUCH better and be more enjoyable for both that person and his/her partner.