Hi, My Name is Gary...

[Gary]

...and I like neo-swing.

If I've read this community right, I'd say that rather puts me in the minority. Without meaning to start any sort of flame war, what is it about neo-swing that makes experienced DJs and dancers revile it so much? I'm hoping for replies of some substance; "it sucks" doesn't really help me much.

Just so we're all on the same page, by neo-swing I mean rock music that is somehow influenced (typically by incorporating horns and saxes, but sometimes rhythmically) by jazz, swing, or jump blues from the 20s to 40s.

--Thanks,
Gary

[Eyeball]

Hi Gary-

Instead of the reply you wanted, can I ask you why you don't like 'real' Swing. I'm not sure that you don't like it, but your post indicates a preference for Neo.

Eyeball

[Gary]

why you don't like 'real' Swing

I like most forms of music, including traditional swing. The only "genre" I dislike as a whole is disco, because I find the beat far too overpowering, which starts out boring and quickly becomes intolerable. Some genres - rap, contemporary pop, and (lately) modern rock - I like okay, but seem to hate the songs individually.

I like neo for three primary reasons. First, the energy. This is what makes me want to get out and dance. I don't dance blues, westie, or Latin because I feel they lack the excitement and energy of neo. My favorite tradtional swing are songs like 2 O'Clock Jump and Well, Git It! - again, high energy songs. Tuxedo Junction, Wade in the Water, Fever... pee breaks.

Second, a rock beat is stronger and easier for me to follow. I'm a little "rhythmically challenged", so a heavier percussion helps me dance and carry on some small talk at the same time.

Third, it's just more familiar to my ear. I grew up with rock, it's what I listened to from grade school through college. I find it more familiar than jazz, particularly be bop and later.

-Gary-

[CafeSavoy]

Gary, I think two reasons some people are not enthused with neo-swing is because the rhythm is more rock than jazz and because the musicianship of some bands leave some to desire. But it can vary from the song to song and band to band. Personally i think you should judge each song on it merits.

[Toon Town Dave]

I wouldn't say I dislike neo-swing. It has it's place, especially in moderation. A few reasons why I don't favor it are (gross generalizations):

• Attempting to dance Lindy Hop to a harsh rock beat feels awkward. 6 count step-step-rock-step works great but that gets boring real fast.
• I find neo-swing to be overly simplistic musically. Once you've heard a recording a dozen times, you've heard what little there is for nuance to make your dance interesting.
• The pool of neo-swing is small, there's just not enough different recordings to choose from let alone good recordings so it's hard to not overplay it.
• A lot of the neo bands try to be cheezy and ham things up too much going for a faux-retro flavor. Too much ham and cheese gives me gas.

Gary, I'm curious how much exposure you've had to classic swing music. I found that as I was exposed to more variety of classic Swing and traditional Jazz, it became much more appealing. My experience is most people (non Lindy Hoppers) are exposed more to 40's pop standards and have a limited view of what swing music really is. When I started dancing, I'd never heard of Chick Webb and associated Count Basie music with the sleepy stuff that Lawrence Welk would play on a PBS holiday special.

Also, what's your opinion of early R&B/Jump Blues/RnR (eg Wynonie Harris, Jackie Wilson) vs Neo (eg Colin James, BBVD)?

[Eyeball]

why you don't like 'real' Swing

I like most forms of music, including traditional swing. The only "genre" I dislike as a whole is disco, because I find the beat far too overpowering, which starts out boring and quickly becomes intolerable. Some genres - rap, contemporary pop, and (lately) modern rock - I like okay, but seem to hate the songs individually.

I like neo for three primary reasons. First, the energy. This is what makes me want to get out and dance. I don't dance blues, westie, or Latin because I feel they lack the excitement and energy of neo. My favorite tradtional swing are songs like 2 O'Clock Jump and Well, Git It! - again, high energy songs. Tuxedo Junction, Wade in the Water, Fever... pee breaks.

Second, a rock beat is stronger and easier for me to follow. I'm a little "rhythmically challenged", so a heavier percussion helps me dance and carry on some small talk at the same time.

Third, it's just more familiar to my ear. I grew up with rock, it's what I listened to from grade school through college. I find it more familiar than jazz, particularly be bop and later.

-Gary-

I think it can be a bit difficult to make the transition for some people, especially since there has been (As one jazz musician termed it) a "suspension of tradition".

I think when you take the extra astep, you may likely forego most 'neo-swing'.

Much traditional Swing has a very high energy level.

OTOH, the subtlety of slower tempo songs can take awhile to asssimillate. BTW -There are faster version of Tuxedo Junction. OTOOH, the well known version hits a solid groove.

Jan Savitt has a lively version of TJ done at the time in 1940.

a tip - FWIW - try to feel the rhythm and not the beat.

[Gary]

...the musicianship of some bands leave some to desire.

I have heard as much. I actually consider it somewhat fortunate that I am not sufficiently educated to be able to recognize that on my own. It kind of allows me to enjoy music I perhaps ought not to. On the other hand, it is less of an asset when DJing.

...judge each song on it merits.

Can you offer an example or two of neo songs you consider better than average? (Let's ignore for the moment the possibility that they may be overplayed.)

-Thanks, Gary-

[Gary]

A lot of the neo bands try to be cheezy and ham things up too much going for a faux-retro flavor.

Perhaps this is part of it. While I can take or leave the ham, I actually enjoy the cheeze. I like songs that make me smile, with fun or clever or (mildly) shocking lyrics.

...how much exposure you've had to classic swing music.

I'm not sure how to measure that. I started dancing in '98 (along with everybody else, I know), but I've stuck with it, so I've been around long enough to be exposed to more than a trvial amount. I consider my book wider than deep, in that I own at least a sample of most of the A-list names. But any time I start delving into any one artist, I start losing interest. For example, I bought a 10-CD collection of Basie, and all the songs started sounding alike; hardly anything I hadn't already heard jumped out at me. I'm almost embarrassed to tell you what I think of Ellington and Ella (after she left Chick Webb). Also, a lot of the 30s-40s music I buy seems to have one or two swing and all the rest foxtrots and ballads. I actually prefer earlier stuff, Charleston and Dixieland.

... had never heard of Chick Webb ....

He is probably my favorite of the big-band swing - him or Calloway - but I only own two of his CDs, and half the songs are duplicated. I'm twice shy now, thinking if I start pursuing him, I'll lose interest again.

Also, what's your opinion of early R&B/Jump Blues/RnR (eg Wynonie Harris, Jackie Wilson) vs Neo (eg Colin James, BBVD)?

I like the "jumpier" jump blues. I have a collection of Harris, and most of the songs I like are the ones that got covered by neo bands (Good Morning, Judge; Bloodshot Eyes; Grandma Plays the Numbers; Oh, Babe). Most of the rest - his more trademark shouting - they just don't do it for me, and I can't see playing them for a general audience. Same with Jordan and Big Joe Turner: I like the ones the neo bands chose to cover. (Wilson, all I know is "Lonely Teardrops" and "Higher and Higher," so I can't comment.) I like Prima, Sam Butera, Fats Waller, some of the more transitional artists, closer to rock than RnB.

When contrasting the originals vs the covers, that's more of a case-by-case basis. James: not a real big fan; prefer the originals, except maybe "C'Mon with the C'Mon." (Is that a cover?) Too much percussion on a lot of his covers. (I know, it's like the rhythm section walks a very fine line with me: too much, too little, juuuuuuust right.)

As far as 45-50s music vs neo as a whole, I like the production sound of neo better. A lot of the older stuff has a noticeable something - hiss, maybe? not sure - that distracts from the music itself.

Very much appreciate your comments. Thanks.


-Gary-

[Gary]

...a "suspension of tradition".

I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase. Can you explain it, or tell me who said it?

I think when you take the extra step, you may likely forego most 'neo-swing'.

Geeze, I hope not. I've got, like, 200 neo CDs.

Jan Savitt has a lively version of TJ done at the time in 1940.

Thanks - I'll look into that one.

a tip - FWIW - try to feel the rhythm and not the beat.

Again, thanks. I'll try this.


-Gary-

[LindyChef]

I actually enjoy the cheeze. I like songs that make me smile, with fun or clever or (mildly) shocking lyrics.

There's plenty of that in traditional blues music as well as swing and jazz ballads, so that's not the unique thing that I think you're really cueing into here.

re: production values. Yes, you might have a higher fidelity recording with modern recordings, but it also exposes bands weaknesses ... which usually can be found in crappy vocals or sub-par horn sections.

I actually consider it somewhat fortunate that I am not sufficiently educated to be able to recognize that on my own. It kind of allows me to enjoy music I perhaps ought not to.

There's some real contradictions in that statement ... and being here on this board. If you don't want to be educated about the music then why read and post here? I'm really curious.

It sounds to me like you really enjoy the rock and roll beat. With that interest, I suspect you might be better off looking into the rockabilly community rather than the lindy community. Have you checked out that scene?

[Gary]

I actually consider it somewhat fortunate that I am not sufficiently educated to be able to recognize that on my own. It kind of allows me to enjoy music I perhaps ought not to.

There's some real contradictions in that statement ... and being here on this board. If you don't want to be educated about the music....

It's not that I don't want to be educated. I do, certainly, recognize that any such education could entail a price: not being able to enjoy some of the low-brow music I presently do. More to the point, though, the thread is not necessarily to learn to appreciate traditional swing, but rather to educate myself about your collective opinion on neoswing.

I understand that jazz is more cerebral than rock - not necessarily by the nature of the genres themselves (as strictly defined, by their rhythms (yes?)), but rather by how they have developed - and am curious as to how you all came to appreciate it. Did you grow up with jazz? Are you music students? Did you grow up with rock (or C&W, or pop, or whatever) and immediately reject the sound? Did you like rock at first but at some point naturally gravitate toward swing and jazz? Again, my primary intent is to learn more why neoswing is generally lowly regarded, rather than why trad swing is more highly regarded, but perhaps approaching it from the other direction may also prove instructive.

...why read and post here? I'm really curious.

I am fortunate enough to be able occasionally to DJ at what we like to call a "swing" dance. This implies much. It is my responsibility to learn about DJing in general, such as (from other threads) learning to mic well, leaning to transition well, knowing my music and my equipment. It is my responsibility to entertain the audience. It is my responsibility to introduce to the audience music they might not otherwise encounter. It is my responsibility, first and foremost, and above all else, not to suck. (I came up with that one on my own.) I hope to learn these things by reading and posting here.

I live in a smaller city than some of the other posters here. This, too, implies much. A smaller population. A smaller scene. And a much, much lower common denominator. I must, of course, know more than my average audience member. That may entail venturing in foreign lands, such as this, learning what I might, distilling from you all what is appropriate for my listeners, and (admittedly, perhaps regretably) eliminating the rest. To the best of my abilities.

It sounds to me like you really enjoy the rock and roll beat. With that interest, I suspect you might be better off looking into the rockabilly community rather than the lindy community. Have you checked out that scene?

I love rockabilly music and I usually throw one or two into my sets (when I am fortunate enough to get one). It's the rockabilly scene itself. They have never struck me as big dancers, and I'm not much into tats or cars. They are a harder bunch than I am. I listen to the music. I rarely visit the scene any more.

By the way, I've been drinking pretty heavily for the past... 14 hours (if my math is not way off by this point). Please bear that chartiably in mind as you read all of the above.

-Gary-

[julius]

More to the point, though, the thread is not necessarily to learn to appreciate traditional swing, but rather to educate myself about your collective opinion on neoswing.

We would all do well to remind ourselves of this, rather than pee all over your love of something.

I understand that jazz is more cerebral than rock - not necessarily by the nature of the genres themselves (as strictly defined, by their rhythms (yes?)), but rather by how they have developed - and am curious as to how you all came to appreciate it. Did you grow up with jazz? Are you music students? Did you grow up with rock (or C&W, or pop, or whatever) and immediately reject the sound? Did you like rock at first but at some point naturally gravitate toward swing and jazz?

I don't think jazz is more cerebral than rock. Jazz is a very broad category, as is rock. You have to remind yourself that jazz was considered the rock of its day -- popular, horrifyingly risque to parents, and the source of youthful corruption.

I think it is easier these days, however, to be a rock musician than a jazz musician because rock (and some neo) requires less technique to create acceptable-to-the-audience music. This is basically because fans of jazz music are much more critical of technique and feeling. You will rarely hear a rock band criticized for barely being able to play their instruments. In fact, sometimes it is a source of pride.

I grew up listening to 50s rock and roll and classical music. Then in high school I discovered 80s pop and rock overall. Then in college I discovered heavy metal, industrial, blues, and techno. Then after I graduated I began to appreciate bluegrass, jazz, and all sorts of other genres. So no, I did not grow up a jazz fan, but once I discovered it, I wanted to learn as much about it as possible. When I was in college I owned a few Charlie Parker albums and didn't really understand jazz. But at some point I discovered that I had a tape of the Count Basie Orchestra, a compilation that spanned his entire career, and I thought every single track on the tape was catchy as hell.

Then I was informed you could dance to it...

It is my responsibility, first and foremost, and above all else, not to suck.

To do this, you have to know what your audience wants. It sounds like you're on the right track though.

It sounds to me like you really enjoy the rock and roll beat. With that interest, I suspect you might be better off looking into the rockabilly community rather than the lindy community. Have you checked out that scene?

Way to be welcoming. :D

Gary, a few of us dislike neo intensely but most of us own it and would probably DJ it occasionally if the situation were right. As you pointed out, most of us DJ for a very different audience than you do. Our tastes have changed from when we first began dancing ... often in many wildly different directions.

In my opinion if you want to get to know swing music more, you should sit down for a listening session with someone who is fanatically enthusiastic about it (without being a dillhole). Their enthusiasm might prove contagious, at least a little bit.

[Pocail]

I like songs that make me smile, with fun or clever or (mildly) shocking lyrics.

Then try Slim Gaillard (Funny and great swing songs. Great entertainer)

I'm the manager of the Jazz-Blues section in our record store and when people shows me some neo swing and ask my opinion. I always say the same thing: Neo is borrowed Jazz music and retouch with todays technology. I find it cold. As a jazz listener, there's nothing better than an old cryspy and warm sound of old 30's 40's songs.

It's like some people like Live albums and some hates it because of the applause. It's a personal choice.

But do your researches and you will find some artists that suites you. If you like Rock n Roll, Go for the real originators (Louis Jordan and T-Bone Walker) there's also a good compilation called grand daddies of rock n roll.

The world of music is way to great to look only in one direction. If you're doing like a horse and blocking your view, you're missing all what is around you. And to be limited in styles is to be limited in culture.

EXPLORE and have fun.

Daniel Champagne
Jazz manager Archambault records
Montreal Quebec

[Gary]

Then try Slim Gaillard (Funny and great swing songs. Great entertainer)

Great advice. Thanks. I actually had accumulated four of his songs from various compilations I had picked up somewhere along the line, but I had not played them in some time. I went back and listened to them again, and really enjoyed them. I'll make sure to start working them into my sets and see if I can't find some more.

Neo.... I find it cold....cryspy and warm sound of old 30's 40's songs.

I like that description. Listening to the two genres in this manner may help me better understand the great distinction you all hear that I miss.

If you like Rock n Roll, Go for the real originators (Louis Jordan and T-Bone Walker) there's also a good compilation called grand daddies of rock n roll.

Certainly, I have a good deal of Jordan already, but (as with Gaillard) I had accumulated a number of Walker recordings which I hadn't listened to in some time and about which I had forgotten. Seems a good first step would be to revisit my own books.

Thanks for your suggestions.


-Gary-

[LindyChef]

As a jazz listener, there's nothing better than an old cryspy and warm sound of old 30's 40's songs.

Yes, but what's even better is listening to them via the equipment of the era, which complimented the recording methods. I have a tube radio that I occasionally play my swing music through with a small tube AM transmitter. Chick Webb and the like have never sounded so sweet. I feel that modern equipment is actually a bit unforgiving and doesn't really compliment these old recordings very well.

To me jazz isn't more cerebral than rock, but then again I've spent a lot of time listening to it. I actually grew up with a lot of rock and roll and country music, but my gateway music to swing and jazz was neoswing music. I don't think anybody here who listened to it ten or so years ago truly hates it nowadays ... put us in the right conditions and some of it is still listenable (although, admittedly, for some it would involve a BAC near poisonous levels). But most of it isn't listenable for reasons given already by others (driving R&R beat, sub-par instrument skills, bad songwriting, bad vocals). Besides, a lot of the bands have the same problem that I see with a lot of local blues bands nowadays - someone who thinks they can play an instrument decides to put a band together and gets the people around him to start a band. Not the best results.

For me, as I started spending a lot of time with the music I began gravitating towards music that wasn't just all about a driving beat/energy. It tends to get tiring and you want a good variety, something which most neo bands can't provide. Sure they might change the back beat, but the energy is still the same. Jazz provides a whole world of variety to explore.

It sounds to me like you really enjoy the rock and roll beat. With that interest, I suspect you might be better off looking into the rockabilly community rather than the lindy community. Have you checked out that scene?

Way to be welcoming.

That's me, rolling out the mat

But actually, the answer that Gary gave is kinda what I was expecting ... it just seems to odd for someone to love rockabilly style music to stay in the lindy scene ... I remember back in the day when a mixed relationship wasn't savoy vs hollywood, but someone from the swing scene dating someone from the rockabilly scene.