External Sound Cards for Laptop DJing

It's all about the equipment

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#106 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Summer Solstice Girl wrote:Should I be worried about the sound quality?
Yes and no.

Yes: You should improve the things under your control until you reach the point of diminishing returns. In general, this means using good quality sources for your music, higher bit rate mp3s (192kbps or higher seems to be preferred), and an external sound card. This will not make up for a poor sound system that you plug into.

No: While you can take a few reasonable steps to improve the quality of the sound over the "built in sound card"...until you can control the sound system, you will reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly. Everything in pro audio is a compromise, and "the best" sound for even a modest sized room runs $$$$$ (and up). Do not start to chase some ethereal audiophile nerd-vanna of sound.

Be reasonable, them move on. You will get more return on your time and effort by focusing on your music collection and on your programming skills rather than the quality of the sound.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:I know some external sound cards will enhance the sound besides allowing me to preview. Although my main goal is to be able to preview songs - and therefore DJ, I want to be able to deliver a good quality set in terms of sound.
An external sound card will generally be a higher fidelity and offer more bits for processing the sound than a built in sound card. There is more difference between the internal and *any* external sound card than there is between most "consumer" grade external sound cards. Said another way, once you have any external sound card, you have gotten 80-90% of the gain that is possible...until you get into the $1k+ sound cards.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote: Will the the venue's sound system compensate for a lousy sound card? again, I have no idea if my laptop's sound card is any good.
No. At best the venue sound system will not make a lousy sound card sound even worse. Very high fidelity sound systems will actually bring out the imperfections in a sound card...and may sound worse than a lower quality sound system.

For most "average" venue sound systems, an onboard laptop sound card will sound "OK" - not good, not great...but "usable." Most external sound cards will stop being the weakest link in a typical sound system.

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Summer Solstice Girl
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#107 Post by Summer Solstice Girl » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:12 pm

SoundInMotionDJ wrote: Yes: You should improve the things under your control until you reach the point of diminishing returns.
That is what I am trying to do, yes
In general, this means using good quality sources for your music, higher bit rate mp3s (192kbps or higher seems to be preferred), and an external sound card.
You lost me there. All my music comes from CDs. I have no idea what happens to it after I import the songs into iTunes (can you please direct me to the appropriate thread if this has been discussed before?)
This will not make up for a poor sound system that you plug into.
Nor do I intend to. I agree with you in that the responsibility of a DJ only goes so far. A DJ should not be responsible for the venue's sound system
until you can control the sound system, you will reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly.
Please bear with me. I have no idea what you mean by diminishing returns :(
Do not start to chase some ethereal audiophile nerd-vanna of sound.
Didn't intent to but good advice anyway
Be reasonable, them move on. You will get more return on your time and effort by focusing on your music collection and on your programming skills rather than the quality of the sound.
OY! programming skills? maybe I should stick to CDs? just kidding. I do want to start DJing with my laptop. What progamming skills do I need?
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:I know some external sound cards will enhance the sound besides allowing me to preview. Although my main goal is to be able to preview songs - and therefore DJ, I want to be able to deliver a good quality set in terms of sound.
Said another way, once you have any external sound card, you have gotten 80-90% of the gain that is possible...until you get into the $1k+ sound cards.
awesome! that is very encouraging.
No. At best the venue sound system will not make a lousy sound card sound even worse. Very high fidelity sound systems will actually bring out the imperfections in a sound card...and may sound worse than a lower quality sound system.
Oy and Oy! but if I get an external sound card then it'll be good enough right? I mean, most swing DJs don't go and get the $1k+ sound cards you mentioned before, right?

SoundInMotionDJ
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#108 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:33 pm

Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
SoundInMotionDJ wrote: In general, this means using good quality sources for your music, higher bit rate mp3s (192kbps or higher seems to be preferred), and an external sound card.
You lost me there. All my music comes from CDs. I have no idea what happens to it after I import the songs into iTunes (can you please direct me to the appropriate thread if this has been discussed before?)
CD's as a source is good.

iTunes as a way to rip CD's to a computer can be good, but is most likely bad. By default, itunes will encode the songs in the "aac" format...which is not the same as an "mp3." There are way to have iTunes rip CDs to mp3's, but that has to be configured by you.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
This will not make up for a poor sound system that you plug into.
Nor do I intend to. I agree with you in that the responsibility of a DJ only goes so far. A DJ should not be responsible for the venue's sound system
Well...I'm a DJ and I provide the sound system. :wink:

But, in general you are correct - the sound system is provided by the venue, and the setup and overall quality will be beyond the control of the DJ.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
until you can control the sound system, you will reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly.
Please bear with me. I have no idea what you mean by diminishing returns :(
Diminishing returns means that beyond a certain point, small improvements start costing lots of $$$. Within your budget, you will be able to get a reasonable sound card. Do not spend a lot of time obsessing over "better" since noticeably better that will cost a LOT more than your budget.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
Be reasonable, them move on. You will get more return on your time and effort by focusing on your music collection and on your programming skills rather than the quality of the sound.
OY! programming skills? maybe I should stick to CDs? just kidding. I do want to start DJing with my laptop. What progamming skills do I need?
I was referring to "programming" as "picking out the songs you will play in the order you will play them" (NOT writing computer programs...tho that can be fun too).

To improve your programming skills:

You need to learn to watch the entire room (not just the floor) as a way of assessing the overall energy and mood of the audience.

You need to understand how to vary tempo, genre, relative "loudness", etc, etc, of the songs as ways to alter the energy or mood of the dancers in the room.

You need to develop a point of view about the kind of music that you play.
Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
No. At best the venue sound system will not make a lousy sound card sound even worse. Very high fidelity sound systems will actually bring out the imperfections in a sound card...and may sound worse than a lower quality sound system.
Oy and Oy! but if I get an external sound card then it'll be good enough right? I mean, most swing DJs don't go and get the $1k+ sound cards you mentioned before, right?


I do not know any DJs who are using the $1k+ sound cards. Most are using sound cards that are <$100 US.

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Summer Solstice Girl
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#109 Post by Summer Solstice Girl » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:55 am

SoundInMotionDJ wrote: iTunes as a way to rip CD's to a computer can be good, but is most likely bad. By default, itunes will encode the songs in the "aac" format...which is not the same as an "mp3." There are way to have iTunes rip CDs to mp3's, but that has to be configured by you.
Gotcha. I do know how to do that. I just never bothered because when I play the songs I have in my laptop, I play them for my own enjoyment. So, when I rip all the CDs I have, should I rip them in an mp3 format?

Well...I'm a DJ and I provide the sound system. :wink:

But, in general you are correct - the sound system is provided by the venue, and the setup and overall quality will be beyond the control of the DJ.
Me too. I organize weekly swing dances here in Ottawa. I was referring to events where I am invited to DJ :)
Within your budget, you will be able to get a reasonable sound card. Do not spend a lot of time obsessing over "better" since noticeably better that will cost a LOT more than your budget.
My point exactly. And that is why I am asking these questions here. I just want to get a sound card that is reasonably priced, will let me preview so I can adjust my set, and in a reasonable manner will also help me improve the sound I am delivering so swing dancers can have the best overall experience possible.
I was referring to "programming" as "picking out the songs you will play in the order you will play them" (NOT writing computer programs...tho that can be fun too).
Ah. I am not a new DJ. I've been DJing for years and at all national events here in Canada. I am just making the transition now to laptop DJing, mainly because first I didn't have a laptop and when I finally got one, I couldn't really afford a decent external sound card until now and I strongly disapprove of "DJing" without previewing (of course someone can say they know every single song in their collection but I think after I passed the 2000 song mark I can't really rely on my memory :P

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#110 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Summer Solstice Girl wrote:
SoundInMotionDJ wrote: iTunes as a way to rip CD's to a computer can be good, but is most likely bad. By default, itunes will encode the songs in the "aac" format...which is not the same as an "mp3." There are way to have iTunes rip CDs to mp3's, but that has to be configured by you.
Gotcha. I do know how to do that. I just never bothered because when I play the songs I have in my laptop, I play them for my own enjoyment. So, when I rip all the CDs I have, should I rip them in an mp3 format?
I rip my CDs to FLAC using Media Monkey. Hard drives are cheap...so space is not an issue. Even keeping a second hard drive around as a back up is within most budgets. FLAC is about 55-65% the size of a WAV, the format is lossless, and MM supports full tags for the songs.

Then, I convert the FLAC to whatever bit rate mp3 I want for use at a gig. MM makes converting between formats really easy.

The theory is that I will never need to put the CDs back into the computer to be re-ripped if I decide I want another format in the future.

Currently, I convert to mp3@224kbps for DJing, and 160kbps for portable device listening.

[By way of backstory...I started ripping my music collection in about 1996. Hard drive space was expensive, and external sound cards were only so good, so I decided on 160kbps as a good compromise. About 2000, hard drives were less expensive, and sound cards were better, so I started re-ripping from the beginning to 192kbps. Around 2004, hard drives were practically cheap, so I started re-ripping from the beginning @ 320kbps. About 2006, FLAC was mature enough to be useful, and MM made it really easy...so I started re-ripping from scratch (this is the 4th time for the people keeping track at home) to FLAC, and converting to whatever I need.

The moral of the story is: Rip once, then convert as required. (Or, don't do what I did...learn from my do-overs.)]

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wspeid
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#111 Post by wspeid » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:53 pm

I stumbled across a clearance sale on Echo Indigo DJ PCMCIA cards $89

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=247019

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#112 Post by Surreal » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:52 pm

If only they did free shipping to Canada... :(

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kitkat
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#113 Post by kitkat » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:02 am

So, is PCMCIA/ExpressCard a better way to get data to a device than USB or something? (I'm trying to figure out why Echo designed for those but not for USB.)

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#114 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:01 am

kitkat wrote:So, is PCMCIA/ExpressCard a better way to get data to a device than USB or something? (I'm trying to figure out why Echo designed for those but not for USB.)
PCMCIA was a standard interface for laptops before USB. It has generally fallen out of favor, and is losing to multi function media card readers in most new consumer laptops.

Echo happened to design their card for use in a PCMCIA slot, and have just kept selling that version.

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#115 Post by JesseMiner » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:03 am

I can't chime in on if PCMCIA is technically better/different than USB, but I LOVE my PCMCIA card. This slot is unused by me otherwise (freeing up all my USB connections for other devices), and it feels much more securely connected to my computer than a USB connection that could potentially be easily knocked/pulled out in most DJ environments.

Bill, thanks for sharing this sweet deal. For anyone with a PCMCIA slot in their laptop (and using software that will take advantage of the great capabilities of this soundcard), I would jump on this deal right away!

Jesse

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kitkat
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#116 Post by kitkat » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:18 am

Okay. Guess I'll go w/ Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro or Craigslist for a used Creative Sound Blaster MP3+ (people are doing well selling those...same price as they used to retail, in many cities!) Thanks!

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#117 Post by tornredcarpet » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:39 pm

well it's a lot easier to remember a sound card that's already in your computer than trying to remember where you stuck the USB dongle device.
Jesse (Los Angeles, CA/Hampton Roads, VA)

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kitkat
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#118 Post by kitkat » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:50 pm

True, but I'd really wonder where I stuck a sound card if I don't have a matching slot on my computer!

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#119 Post by Surreal » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:18 pm

Having worked in a computer shop years ago, nothing surprises me any more about where people try to shove in various peripherals.

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#120 Post by Surreal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:22 pm

Check out the first few options on this page here...
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/all-d ... -a-325941/

I picked up #3 on that list the other day (the DAC Destroyer to be specific) and so far am quite happy with it. No drivers to install, just plug and play, though it did reset my volume levels. Initial impressions compared to the Turtle Beach Micro, using both my desktop and laptop, headphones/computer speakers/PA:
- not nearly as loud as the Micro, about the same volume as my default sound card, maybe even a bit less
- bigger, at 2.5x2.5x1 vs the Micro's 1x2.5x3/8
- quieter than the Micro (no background fuzz), but the Micro is almost undetectable to begin with anyways
- has both RCA and 1/8 output
- sounds crisper (very subjective, and I loosely qualify this as how well the sound cuts through a noisy room), maybe as good as my Echo Indigo but I haven't used my Echo in a while
- less bass, though the Micro is a gaming card so emphasizes bass anyways
- a bit harsh on the high end actually, I found myself turning down the highs on my equalizer (apparently a "burn in" period will alleviate this, but who knows...?)
- considering shipping, cost me about $20 more than the Micro

edit: so after a couple weeks, the high end harshness has mellowed out

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