Tips for finding the right 'next song' in the heat of DJing

Tips and techniques of the trade

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Haydn
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#61 Post by Haydn » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:17 am

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:
Haydn wrote:I've heard lots of DJs talk about 'the wave', and the mountain ride tagging idea seems to fit with this.
Hmmm...I wonder if this is just a terminology thing. When I talk about playing a "wave" I'm referring to tempo. I want to start slow, then go to fast, then go back to slow. So that the tempo is "a few" beats faster/slower on each song in a set. That helps to create some predictability to the mix for the dancers who are there.

I'm not sure how I would go about placing a song on the "up" side instead of the "down" side of the wave. That is something I will need to ponder.

--Stan Graves
I think that by grouping songs together by 'feel' in addition to tempo, it should be possible to manage a set more effectively.

For example, take 'A Mellow Bit Of Rhythm' by Andy Kirk. When I hear that I feel excited, and it feels as though the music is going somewhere and I want to go with it. It's got drive and momentum, and an 'up' feel. In contrast, 'Are You Having Any Fun' by Tommy Dorsey is a similar tempo, but has quite a different feel - more relaxed and 'down'.

SoundInMotionDJ
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#62 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:25 pm

Haydn wrote:I think that by grouping songs together by 'feel' in addition to tempo, it should be possible to manage a set more effectively.
Tempo is concrete and unchanging. Once I have the tempo, that's the tempo.

"Feel" is subjective. My mood, my energy level, my biases, my recent listening, my recent dancing will all color how I see the "feel" of a song. Even if I could factor out all that stuff for today - feel changes over time.

In the last decade, the "average" speed of songs played for west coast swing has dropped by 10bpm. That has changed the "feel" of every song in my collection.

In the last few years my dancing has improved a lot. So, my own perception of "hard" or "easy" or "intricate" has changed along with my skill level.

When I started ripping music, I would delete the songs I didn't think were a good "fit" for the dance. In the last six months I've been going through my CD collection looking for songs that I passed over the first time. I am *stunned* at the songs I passed on 6 to 8 years ago. There is a *lot* of really good music that I didn't think fit the "feel" I was looking for just a few years ago.

Perhaps within the Lindy community things are static enough with music and style that the "feel" of a song can stand for a few years. But that is not true for me.

--Stan Graves

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#63 Post by Toon Town Dave » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:39 pm

Many very good points.

Generally, don't just look at each recording in isolation. The mood of the whole evening can be controlled based on feel, tempo, "the wave" Haydn describes and even including a bit of contrast. Combine that with the audience, their dynamic at that moment. Music trends, etc.

I use a lot of intuition when I DJ. Really, if the skills of a good DJ could be distilled into a few heuristics based on empirical data, we could probably be replaced with a smarter version of party shuffle.

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#64 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:15 pm

Toon Town Dave wrote:I use a lot of intuition when I DJ. Really, if the skills of a good DJ could be distilled into a few heuristics based on empirical data, we could probably be replaced with a smarter version of party shuffle.
I mean no dis-respect or personal affront to anyone. And I am not singling out TTDave.

I agree that "instinct" (by some definition) is an important part of any artistic endevour. I disagree that being able to articulate the "why's" and "how's" of what you do in the form of a heuristic should not be the "professional standard" for any DJ.

It is very likely that an automated play list could go "as good" a job as most of the DJs on this board....provided that the music selection was restricted to "familiar favorites" for the particular crowd at hand. Think of this as the DJ who begins each set with the full play list from their last set, and re-arranges a few songs and adds a couple of new songs.

Amatures often rely on "instinct" or "feel" or "talent" based descriptions of what they do. This is largely because amatures lack the experience, training, skill, education, and vocabulary to effectively describe what they do, how they do it, and why they make the choices that they are making. Some amatures can not even describe the possible options for any given choice they have made - at any given point they only have a single option that is "obvious" to them. We all begin like this.

As you progress in your skills, education, training, and vocabulary - you will find that being "deliberate" and having concrete reasons for each choice represents the "professional standard" for any particular craft or art.

Listen to the interviews on "Inside the Actors Studio." You will hear a lot about "serendipity" and "in the moment" and "magic." But you will also hear a lot about preparation, research, practice, rehearsal, direction, experimentation, and choices - very deliberate choices. You will hear actors talk a lot about introspection of the character as a method to better inform the choices that they make in their portrayals.

Listen to musicians talk about their first tour - and how the shear repetition of performing made them better performers, and made them more disciplined and deliberate in their rehearsals and studio time. Listen to how a dedication to the craft of being a musician was required to help get them through their performances.

Now apply those same lessons to what you do in the booth. You should treat this as an art form - but all art is based on good technique. If you do not understand the "rules" then you can not choose to break them. If you can not provide a detailed, concrete reason for every song choice you make - then you are not operating at the "professional" level of this craft.

--Stan Graves

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Mr Awesomer
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#65 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:07 pm

A screwdriver is a wonderful tool.
However, it's useless when you have nails and not screws.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

Toon Town Dave
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#66 Post by Toon Town Dave » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:33 pm

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:I mean no dis-respect or personal affront to anyone. And I am not singling out TTDave.
No offense taken, I prefer a nice frank discussion. I do want to nit pick a few points in your reply.

First, I was careful to choose the word intuition rather than instinct, going with the Merriam Websterdefinition: "2. c. the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference". Intuition is that sense that a particular recording would go over great despite never having played it for an audience before.

Instinct on the other hand is relatively easy to replicate, instinct is basically a heuristic. For us, that safety song that we go to when we just can't think of what to play is an example of instinct.
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:It is very likely that an automated play list could go "as good" a job as most of the DJs on this board....provided that the music selection was restricted to "familiar favorites" for the particular crowd at hand. Think of this as the DJ who begins each set with the full play list from their last set, and re-arranges a few songs and adds a couple of new songs.
The problem with this is that small set of songs gets tired really fast the emotions of the audience become mechanical. Sort of like dancing to your favorite tune where you know all the breaks a nuances to the point where your dancing is like a mini-routine. Some dancers are cool with this and even prefer it. When I've DJ'd in other scenes, I see this when I get requests for specific recordings because the local DJ always plays it.

Thanks to open, discussions like this, both off and on-line, DJ'ing in the swing scene is pretty good and always getting better. It helps newer DJ's add to their skills and us more experienced DJs re-think our own approach. DJ's are constantly the depth and even breadth of music played at dances is always growing.

I would agree with you that amateurs rely more on instinct, feel or other narrow criteria like tempo. Thinking back many moons to when I first started DJ'ing, tempo and artist were probably the top criteria for selecting music. For example I would instinctively think mid-tempo Ella = music for dancing Lindy Hop without thinking about how the rhythm was being played. They way I look at music and DJ'ing has changed a lot since then.

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:Listen to the interviews on "Inside the Actors Studio." You will hear a lot about "serendipity" and "in the moment" and "magic." But you will also hear a lot about preparation, research, practice, rehearsal, direction, experimentation, and choices - very deliberate choices. You will hear actors talk a lot about introspection of the character as a method to better inform the choices that they make in their portrayals.
Absolutely, all that preparation feeds intuition. One of the things that our brains are good at is recognizing patterns that are sometimes hard to detect mechanically. That's why we like to see patterns coming out of willing lottery numbers when the mathematics says there is no pattern. With knowledge, experience and situational awareness, our intuition can quickly make sense of all that information help us choose our next selection quickly.

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:Now apply those same lessons to what you do in the booth. You should treat this as an art form - but all art is based on good technique. If you do not understand the "rules" then you can not choose to break them. If you can not provide a detailed, concrete reason for every song choice you make - then you are not operating at the "professional" level of this craft.
Maybe I'm just reading this the wrong way but doesn't art usually involve some form of innovation? Art critics like to analyzing works after the fact but I really don't think the best works of art were derived without some sort of intuition.

In swing music, compare Paul Whiteman's band to Fletcher Henderson. Whiteman over-analyzed the music and came out pretty square and dull while Henderson's band took the music to new and interesting places.

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#67 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:56 pm

Toon Town Dave wrote:No offense taken, I prefer a nice frank discussion. I do want to nit pick a few points in your reply.
Excellent. And a few nits coming back at you...
Toon Town Dave wrote:First, I was careful to choose the word intuition rather than instinct, going with the Merriam Webster definition: "2. c. the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference". Intuition is that sense that a particular recording would go over great despite never having played it for an audience before.
I have no objection to you indicating that your choices are based on "intuition." But, focusing your attention on this part of the definition: "...without evident rational thought and inference..."

IMO, the "professional" standard REQUIRES rational thought.

You can rationally think through how a particular recording might go over despite never having played it for an audience before. If you reasoning is based on concrete observations and reasoning - that is the professional standard. If you reasoning is based on "intuition" alone...than that is something other than the professional standard.
Toon Town Dave wrote:Instinct on the other hand is relatively easy to replicate, instinct is basically a heuristic. For us, that safety song that we go to when we just can't think of what to play is an example of instinct.
Actually, my "safety songs" are all based on preparation, prior experience, common requests, etc. I have concrete and rational explanations for every song that is on that list. It has nothing to do with instinct.
Toon Town Dave wrote:
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:It is very likely that an automated play list could go "as good" a job as most of the DJs on this board....provided that the music selection was restricted to "familiar favorites" for the particular crowd at hand. Think of this as the DJ who begins each set with the full play list from their last set, and re-arranges a few songs and adds a couple of new songs.
The problem with this is that small set of songs gets tired really fast the emotions of the audience become mechanical.
Who said the list would be small or static?

I said "...the music selection was restricted to 'familiar favorites' for the particular crowd at hand." I have hundreds of songs that meet that description. I make my selections from songs that meet that description. Given 20 three minute songs an hour, I have literally DAYS worth of "familiar favorites."
Toon Town Dave wrote:Thanks to open, discussions like this, both off and on-line, DJ'ing in the swing scene is pretty good and always getting better. It helps newer DJ's add to their skills and us more experienced DJs re-think our own approach. DJ's are constantly the depth and even breadth of music played at dances is always growing.
I have some concerns about the 'sudden" "homogenization" of music across the country - but I agree that the "average" level of music has generally gone up as a result of sites like this where DJs can trade ideas and song lists.
Toon Town Dave wrote:Maybe I'm just reading this the wrong way but doesn't art usually involve some form of innovation? Art critics like to analyzing works after the fact but I really don't think the best works of art were derived without some sort of intuition.
All great art is a dirty combination of rules and broken rules. All great art pushes the boundaries of conventional thought and the "norm." All great art is also built on a foundation of classical technique, rational thought, and deliberate choices. You must know the rules so that you can choose when you want to ignore them, or to make new rules.

Until you know the rules, until you are conscious of the decisions are you making, until the moves are deliberate - you can not achieve "awesome" and you probably won't even make it to "great" on a regular basis.

Be warned that sometimes efforts to get to "awesome" fail and you are left with "awful." Awesome rarely degrades gracefully...you either achieve it, or you wind up with a roomful of people staring at you.

There is a professional standard. All professionals (or master craftsmen, if you prefer) can teach an apprentice to perform at the same level. You must be able to articulate your choices if you are to be able to teach someone else to perform at your level.

--Stan Graves

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#68 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:56 pm

Mr Awesomer wrote:A screwdriver is a wonderful tool.
However, it's useless when you have nails and not screws.
???

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#69 Post by Surreal » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:25 pm

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:
Mr Awesomer wrote:A screwdriver is a wonderful tool.
However, it's useless when you have nails and not screws.
???
I thought it might have been a Dr. Who reference.

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#70 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:00 pm

I just thought I'd post that instead of coming right out and making a really dick remark about... well, I'd better just leave it at that.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

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djstarr
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#71 Post by djstarr » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:16 pm

straycat wrote:What I'm wondering is whether there's any way to devise a tag system that involves this more instinctive aspect, or whether it's better to tag tracks along more quantifiable lines, so I can whittle down to a selection based on those, then let my instincts go to work on the results....
A quick note on tagging. I use JRiver Media Center and it has a very nice library system. Predefined tags include BPM, Artist, Album and Rating [1 to 5 *****]. I've added genre and a notes field. My genres include "jank", "swing", "lounge", "neo", "jazz", "groove", "blues", "soul", "westie", "trad". Combined with the notes field [where I add energy related comments or anything that really stands out about the song] I can easily find the next best song of a certain feel. It's also easy to edit the tags as you Dj, so if you've changed your mind about something, just update the tags.

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#72 Post by djstarr » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Albert System wrote:FYI- this is how I categorize my tunes for when I am calling a set of music with my band. I do not make set lists ahead of time- I like to call things as I go depending on the crowd. So I have my songs listed thusly:.................
Another thing that I try to do, which is much more difficult with recorded music, is to change keys. I try to never play back- to- back tunes in the same key. Things will start to sound monotonous if you do.

Paul Cosentino
Boilermaker Jazz Band
Paul! Thanks for the posts. I always felt that a great band leader had good DJ skills, especially a band that dancers enjoy, and your post confirms this. And you are organized to a larger extent than I would have assumed.

Thank you for NOT playing the same key back to back.

And too much 12-bar in a row [really bad at some blues venues] gets on my nerves more than anything!

I'll be at DCLX this year, looking forward to hearing your band and enjoying dancing to you!

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