Who plays Glenn Miller's 'In The Mood'?

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julius
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#76 Post by julius » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:17 pm

remysun wrote:
6) Timing -- The breaks and ending are all predictable. The thing I HATE about older songs is that I don't know when they're ending so I can apply a big finish. It's like they just stop mid-beat sometimes.
As far as the end of a song, that's odd to me. Most older swing songs employ 32 bar or 12 bar choruses, with very few exceptions -- this combined with the chord progression makes for fairly predictable endings (although it's far easier to do with ITM because the riff is repetitive). The actual musicianship cues you in too, e.g. a drum break or a horn break.

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Eyeball
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#77 Post by Eyeball » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 pm

After not too much listening, you can feel the ending coming or happening 9 times out of ten.

What has thrown me with some recent big band arrangements of old tunes is that *they* end way to abruptly; you're waiting and feeling for that last 8 bar recapitulation of the song ,..and it isn't there. Very unsettling.

But the arrangers back in the day simply knew when to wrap it up and how to do it. I think if some people today are having a problem, it's them and not the song.,arrangement or performance.
Will big bands ever come back?

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Lawrence
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#78 Post by Lawrence » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:58 am

julius wrote:
remysun wrote:
6) Timing -- The breaks and ending are all predictable. The thing I HATE about older songs is that I don't know when they're ending so I can apply a big finish. It's like they just stop mid-beat sometimes.
As far as the end of a song, that's odd to me. Most older swing songs employ 32 bar or 12 bar choruses, with very few exceptions -- this combined with the chord progression makes for fairly predictable endings (although it's far easier to do with ITM because the riff is repetitive). The actual musicianship cues you in too, e.g. a drum break or a horn break.
I agree. But I think he's talking about the swift, abrupt endings that were sometimes required due to the 3:00 time limits on the 78 records. More modern stuff also uses different musical cues like slowing the tempo down in the last phrase or two, hesitating then ending, or using some other more obvious audible clue than song structure.

The ending of Les Brown's "Leap Frog" is a classic example. Paying attention to the structure, you should know that the song is about to end. But paying attention to the audible clues, it just kinda ends rather abruptly. I thus see some truth in what both of you are saying.
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remysun
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#79 Post by remysun » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:43 am

I think it's mostly about the time limits on 78's, and a little about the arrangements. On occasion, Paul King and the Rhythm Society Orchestra will take people by surprise with the ending of a song, but it's usually the older recording, which many don't like because the fidelity is bad in the first place.

8 ) Fidelity -- Glenn Miller's recording has great fidelity. Maybe this is a part of pianoforte, but there's a lot to be said about the effect of technological innovations to an artistic medium.

Getting back to endings, it's just so much easier to prepare when the melody slows down (not necessarily the tempo), the band's putting everything into that last whole note (because who cares if they have to breathe after the song's done), and there's the octave high note that says, "It's me, the fat lady singing!"

When the song and the dancers finish at the same time, there's the satisfaction of a double entendre very well done....

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#80 Post by Haydn » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:32 am

remysun wrote:Looking at "In The Mood" can at least show what are the elements of a crowd pleaser. I think its popularity was from foreshadowing the emerging elements of popular music.

1) The opening lick -- It's the brass version of Jimmy Hendrix's "Purple Haze", a BOLD statement about the rest of the song. It also gives people time to cram the floor without feeling they're entering the song too late.

2) Perfect tempo -- A fast song, it conveys a challenge, without being a challenging tempo.

3) Three chord rock and roll -- Think about it. An entire decade before the phrase was coined, this song had the elements of it: 12-bar blues.

4) Pianoforte -- The dynamic range of the song, loud and soft and loud again.
All good points. Perhaps the same elements that make some cringe are the secrets of the song's success. I hate 'Mack The Knife', but can't help noticing it's a reliable floor-filler just like 'In The Mood'.

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kitkat
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#81 Post by kitkat » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:43 pm

julius wrote:
remysun wrote:6) Timing -- ...The thing I HATE about older songs is that I don't know when they're ending so I can apply a big finish. It's like they just stop mid-beat sometimes.
As far as the end of a song, that's odd to me.
I'd like to elaborate on Julius's comment a little bit and let you in on what he, subconsciously or consciously, probably knows.

I learned this from a class taught by Todd & Naomi with Robert Bell playing live and explaining tricks (so sort of being a 3rd teacher), so I have to give all credit to Robert and the dance teachers for this. If you see such a lesson, take it--you'll learn even more!

But here's what you really need to know to predict an ending in an old song:
  1. what the beginning of the song sounded like &
  2. how many instruments are playing loudly.
Typical form for an improvised old song:
  • Almost everybody in the band is playing the melody as you recognize it. They do this once (this either takes 32 measures or 12 measures, generally, as Julius said).
  • Play 32 or 12 measures' worth of music, but you as the dancer probably don't recognize anything. Everyone who's still playing (most likely only about 3 or 4 people--the rhythm instrument players) is playing the same chords as they did during the melody, but the soloist is making up a new melody that just happens to fit the same chords.
  • Do this again 2-7 times with different soloists.
  • Everyone comes back in and plays the melody somewhat similarly to the first time--maybe a little different. And the drummer is probably going crazier.

    Oh, and in addition to the melody, instead of almost all the melodic instruments playing one melody in harmony, there is probably a saxophonist or a trumpeter or a clarinetist wailing away doing something distracting, exciting, & different from everyone else.

    (The more intense the distracting, exciting, & different play gets--perhaps with more instrumentalists doing it--the more likely we are to refer to it as a "Shout Chorus." Because it's more like a lot of people shouting, I guess.)
  • At the end of that 32 or 12 measures I just described, be ready for a BIG FINISH! Count it out if you have to.

    Don't jump the gun, though. They might do this last thing twice or add what's called a "tag." (They take something like, say, the last 8 measures of a 32-measure form and play them twice more, finishing at the end of these "tags."

    If you hear "tags," just be ready for your BIG FINISH at the end of what you think will be the last 32, again at the end of the first tag, again at the end of the next tag, etc.

    Eventually you'll be right with the musicians when they finally stop, and meanwhile, the freezes or moves you make at the end of the shout chorus or at the end of each tag will look like really cool interpretation of the end of, well, a chorus or tag.
    )
Typical form for a mostly-arranged old song:
  • Almost everybody in the band is playing the melody as you recognize it.

    They do this once (this either takes 32 measures or 12 measures, generally, as Julius said).
  • Optional: Same thing--the melody's still recognizeable--only about half the winds are told to do some other cool tune (a countermelody or "riffs") at the same time.
  • Option 1: Do the same improvisational thing as I described in the "improvised" music's middle, only don't let all the melodic instruments sit out.

    Set several of them to playing "riffs" underneath the soloist.

    You as a dancer might actually feel like the riffs rather than the solo make the song. You as a dancer might go home whistling the riffs and forgetting the solo. They're meant to be catchy--don't worry! :-)

    But don't mistake half the wind section riffing under a solo or under another riff with half the wind section riffing under the other half playing the main melody of the song.

    Being able to keep these two straight is CRUCIAL to detecting the end of a song.
  • Option 2: Half the melodic instruments play some pre-arranged melody/riff that you haven't heard before, while half the melodic instruments play a different riff that you might or might not have heard before. (Heck, they might even split the winds into 3.)

    So the way Option 2 is different from Option 1 is that option 1 has improvised solos (by one person at a time) over riffs, while Option 2 has a pre-arranged new melody (by one or two sections playing together in harmony) over riffs.

    This pre-arranged "call and response" melody/countermelody(riff) thing is meant to be catchy--don't worry if you find yourself trying to whistle both parts at once even more than you ever whistle the melody from the beginning of the song! :-)

    But don't mistake half the wind section riffing under the other half new catchy stuff with half the wind section riffing under the other half playing the main melody of the song.

    Being able to keep these two straight is CRUCIAL to detecting the end of a song.
  • Repeat Option 1 or Option 2 2-7 times.
  • Ending Option 1 (most common): Almost everyone plays the melody somewhat similarly to the first time--maybe a little different.

    The exciting/distratcting/different countermelody going on underneath the melody, done by a few extra melodic instrumentalists, is probably arranged rather than improvised.
  • Ending Option 2 (less common): Almost everyone plays an arranged melody, but it's totally not the melody from the beginning of the song.

    This is rather rare, but you need to know about it since it does happen in a song we swing DJs play a lot: "One O'Clock Jump."

    How to tell if any one melody just one of the "new melodies" I described in the middle of the song's "Option 2" or if it's actually the new melody that makes up the end of the song? Number of people playing loudly.

    If there are multiple "riffs" under this new melody (so, say, 2 different backup wind sections, each with its own riff) AND those riffs are loud, you're probably in the last 32/12-measures of the song.
  • Get ready for your BIG FINISH at the end of those 32/12/etc. measures!

    (But don't forget that they might repeat the 32/12-measures one or even two more times with everyone playing. How to tell the first time through the Shout Chorus from the last in arranged big band music like this? Listen to the chaos and the volume. It'll sound the most "complete" and "filling" the last time through.)

    (And don't forget about listening for tags--the last 8 bars of the melody repeated twice at the end or something. You'll look GREAT, not foolish, for hitting the end of the Shout Chorus AND hitting the end of the tag.)


(P.S. If this is written helpfully, let me know and I'll make a new thread out of it--though I promise I'll refer to the band in the 3rd person & the dancer in the 2nd person rather than both in the 2nd person when I do!. If not, hey, someone who's a more simplistic writer rewrite it as a new thread, please. ;-) )

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kitkat
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#82 Post by kitkat » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:01 pm

remysun wrote:Looking at "In The Mood" can at least show what are the elements of a crowd pleaser. I think its popularity was from foreshadowing the emerging elements of popular music.
That's a great idea, Remysun, and even if no one here but Eyeball ever decides to play "In The Mood" regularly at dances, this breakdown you've done certainly will help more analytical-minded DJs who read this forum understand what elements we might consciously or subconsciously be looking for when we hunt for music to spin for lindy hoppers (even if we don't use songs that take those elements to the degrees they're taken to in "In The Mood!")

In fact, I almost didn't post my last post--thinking that it belonged more on Yehoodi (because it's aimed at dancers for making the best out of a situation they didn't think they could enjoy with their old knowledge) rather than SwingDJs (where it's probably more pertinent to the audience of the board to talk about what elements help lindy hoppers avoid feeling stuck in those situations and to talk about whether or not we want to help them with it or not). Nevertheless, since lindy hoppers who're curious about music often lurk on this board, I figured it's actually more likely to get read by lindy hoppers who could use the information here than over on Yehoodi.)

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#83 Post by kitkat » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Lawrence wrote:The ending of Les Brown's "Leap Frog" is a classic example. Paying attention to the structure, you should know that the song is about to end. But paying attention to the audible clues, it just kinda ends rather abruptly. I thus see some truth in what both of you are saying.
Yeah, then there are those songs, and they make my entire long explanation of what to pay attention to useless. :lol:

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#84 Post by remysun » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:51 pm

Haydn wrote: All good points. Perhaps the same elements that make some cringe are the secrets of the song's success. I hate 'Mack The Knife', but can't help noticing it's a reliable floor-filler just like 'In The Mood'.
If the elements themselves make people cringe, perhaps it's because of the knowledge that success with these elements lead to the big enemy of music-- Overplay. Hearing something too many times, when there's just so much more in this world to listen to, leads to nihilism.

So I guess the goal of every DJ should be to have a wide enough set that we don't groan from the overplay of the standards. It's a limited pool of songs, and they do burn out. There are people who refuse to work at oldies stations for this reason.

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#85 Post by remysun » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:11 am

kitkat wrote:
remysun wrote:Looking at "In The Mood" can at least show what are the elements of a crowd pleaser. I think its popularity was from foreshadowing the emerging elements of popular music.
That's a great idea, Remysun, and even if no one here but Eyeball ever decides to play "In The Mood" regularly at dances, this breakdown you've done certainly will help more analytical-minded DJs who read this forum understand what elements we might consciously or subconsciously be looking for when we hunt for music to spin for lindy hoppers (even if we don't use songs that take those elements to the degrees they're taken to in "In The Mood!")
Actually Katie, it's Michael. The remysun came about from creating an email address at the same time I was creating a main character for a story.

Anyway, I hope that this does help improve musical selections. I think that too many DJ make their choices in terms of Play This, it works, or Don't Play This, I'm sick of it. Both are gut reactions that isolate our worldview. After all, what works might have gotten tiring, and what's been overplayed still has value, especially in attracting new listeners and dancers.

Maybe this means don't play "Mack the Knife" AND "In The Mood" with the rest of the reliables on the same night, unless the DJ is reeling in a big catch of new people so the vibe says do it. It definitely means be careful about wearing a song out. Once or twice a night at the same venue leads to a lot of overplay. In the days of vinyl, the wear on the groove made it more obvious when this was happening.

My personal opinion is that the elements should be identified within contemporary pop for use in the swing scene, and within swing music for crossing over into the general populace. Every attempt should be made to make swing dancing accessible.

In Ann Arbor, there are two groups trying to promote swing, and it seems to me that a double brain transplant is needed. The campus organization is probably the biggest opportunity for outreach, yet current management says to be "Traditional". We had one of the best 20's charleston dancers around, sure, but I don't think it pulled anybody away from the neighboring pool hall.

As a result of this, a counter group has formed with much success within the past year, but it seems that its outreach is limited to those who have gotten into swing, and have fallen away from the campus organization because of its obstinancy. It's only fortunate the transit population is large enough to support them both.

Detroit has also been hurt. DJs overplayed the bag of reliables. One got lazy to the point where he burned three CD-Rs for his playlist. There was no outreach, and people got sick of the music, on top of the drain in the economy. As a result, we've just gone through a period with no swing venue at all, and may very well again in the immediate future.

There is hope though. A local paper just did a story about the hottest swing dance scene in Detroit, which is run by a homeschooled teen in his suburb's downtown pavillion, as a free place for the underaged to hang out and learn to dance.

That's what I mean by outreach. Play "In The Mood" and "Mack the Knife", follow it with Maroon Five, "Candyman", and Amy Winehouse, and play so much other stuff that people will never tire of anything, letting people know how not only how great swing was in its heyday, but also that swing is relevant to today's era, and not just a relic of the years gone by.

Michael

Sorry if we need a new thread now. Given the state of my local dance scenes, I'd love it if I was preaching to the choir.

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remysun
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#86 Post by remysun » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:39 pm

Does some of the disdain for "In The Mood" come from the fact that the original arrangement has been lost, so the Glenn Miller version overly defines what the song is? Sure you can make a remixed medley with it, cover it, but Setzer's just coppin' Miller when he does it.

At this point, I'm reminded of the allusions in "All You Need Is Love": "In The Mood", "La Marsellaise", "Greensleeves", and "She Loves You".

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#87 Post by Eyeball » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:56 pm

remysun wrote:Does some of the disdain for "In The Mood" come from the fact that the original arrangement has been lost........
Original arrangement lost? :?:
Will big bands ever come back?

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#88 Post by remysun » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:46 am

Eyeball wrote:
remysun wrote:Does some of the disdain for "In The Mood" come from the fact that the original arrangement has been lost........
Original arrangement lost? :?:
This has been on the Wikipedia article since the end of January, too long not to have been removed for being vandalism. It is uncited, however.
Many high school and college jazz ensembles continue to play the song today. However, the original score was lost over the years, so all current versions are very similar to, but have slight differences from, the original Glenn Miller recorded version.
I also searched for sheet music on the Library of Congress website. Nothing primary source. "Tar Paper Stomp" is mentioned as a source for the main theme. Regardless, there seems to be only one way to go about the song and that's Glenn Miller's.

It makes an ITM cover sound like Michael Bolton's cover of Percy Sledge's rendition of "When a Man Loves A Woman". :cry:

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#89 Post by Eyeball » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:45 am

The arrangement isn't 'lost' when the broadcasts and recordings are available for anyone to transcribe, which they are.

Unless someone is looking for the actual paper chart with all the parts - and I don't even know if *that* is 'lost'. There a lot of Miller stuff at the University of Colorado.
Will big bands ever come back?

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#90 Post by Toon Town Dave » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:28 pm

Perhaps lost is used in the sense that the high school and college bands no longer play the original arrangement in favor of their own (adapted to their particular band's tastes, composition and strengths).

Either way, like anything on the Internet take everything you read at face value.

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