What are you essential edits?

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JesseMiner
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#91 Post by JesseMiner » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:16 am

Greg Avakian wrote:As I recall from a conversation with Jesse Miner, the Lou Rawls & Les McCann version of "Ain't nobody's business" fades at a random point in the song (without regard to phrasing).
Yeah, that version fades out while Lou is still singing! Bugs me every time I hear it. I would love to hear where the rest of the song went.

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#92 Post by JesseMiner » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:26 am

Getting back to the topic that started this thread, here are a few of my own favorite edits that I play quite often:

* Nina Simone - Jellyroll
Removed large chunk of intro.

* Kermit Ruffins - When I Die (You Better Second Line)
Removed entire slow intro.

* Gene Harris - Classical In G
Probably similar to the edit that Greg has made.

And probably my favorite edit (not by me, done by my good friend Leland):

Slim Galliard - Hit That Jive Jack
Removed a chunk of the "noodley" section near the end.

Note: I rarely have edited anything because I don't have Manu's mad skillz.

I wish Mike Thibault from Rochester would chime in. He has some great edits!

This thread is totally inspiring me to go back to the cutting board (Sound Forge) and work on some more edits.

Jesse

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Lawrence
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#93 Post by Lawrence » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:35 pm

I mostly edit out beginnings or endings, partly because I did not have software capable of editing out a chunk from the middle until recently. When I did, I had to create two tracks and play them consecutively, which sometimes caused a jolt in the transition so I abandoned the tactic.

A couple of my essential intro/outro edits that I can remember are the following:

-Maxine Sullivan, off the album "Tribute to Andy Razaf:" edited out the beginnings of Keeping Out of Mischief Now, Massachusetts, Blue Turning Grey Over You, Sposin', and How Can You Face Me? Lots of spoken or slow, meandering intros on that CD. I don't think ANYONE plays the full versions of these songs.

-Duke Ellington & Count Basie, "First Time," edited out the bongoey, Samba-like intro and outro to Wild Man. Absolutely amazing song in between. Indeed, Wild Man is one of my absolute favorite Swing songs, ever: great melody, great themes, great solos, fantastic ebb and flow and then crescendo to a clear "big finish" ending. The song is also classic case of a completely overlooked song because the first minute is at all Swing, and thus few DJs actually listen to it long enough to find the gem in the heart of the song. I rarely hear it played anywhere even though it is absolutely phenomenal.

-Gene Harris, off the album "In His Hands," the song Operator: edited out a preachy spoken intro saying (in your most naive, preachy tone), "Operator, please connect me to the Lord." Absolutely amazing song, though, although I respect that fast-vintage lovers might not agree.
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Greg Avakian
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#94 Post by Greg Avakian » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:37 pm

JesseMiner wrote:
* Kermit Ruffins - When I Die (You Better Second Line)
Removed entire slow intro.
Speaking of Kermit Ruffins,
1). "St James infirmary"
2). "What is New Orleans?"

Both are great songs for blues dancing, but were both too long.

I'd say the classic edit that so many DJs play is Wycliffe Gordon's
"Blooze first thaighn dis moanin'"
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#95 Post by julius » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:52 pm

Greg Avakian wrote: Although obviously the early jazz recordings were not edited, editing was used by every kind of musician (classical, jazz, whatever) as soon as it became available. I think it's safe to say that musicians would have been in favor of editing their earliest recordings if they could have. What's more, if you think about it, music was always edited -it was just edited in someone's head as they decided who would get a solo and who would not. Of course that is part of the beauty of hearing live jazz -"they just wind it up and let it go".
This implies that the DJ has as much claim on editing music as the musician did. Which, to overuse my pet phrase, is mind-boggling.

To me, the beauty of jazz is that so much of it emerges directly from the heart, head, and fingers/throat of the musician, unfiltered in live performance. Sometimes there are clams. Sometimes a solo is awkward. Sometimes the phrasing is lame. But when the musician or producer chose that particular cut to release, that lameness was included. That's their artistic decision.

DJs make a commercial decision to edit. I think that is significantly different.

Like I said before, keep on editing if you want to. I personally don't like second-guessing what the musician intended us to hear -- which reiterates my feeling that if the musician intended us to dance to it, why would they put out a cut with such undanceable parts? In other words, why are we modifying the music to fit the dance? To stretch the analogy, isn't that a bit like recording a disco version of swing music so people can hustle to it?

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#96 Post by julius » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:12 pm

I actually like the introductions of Now You Has Jazz (Bing and Louis) and Massachusetts (Maxine). I realize you could chop out the first 43 seconds of NYHJ, but the contrast between the meandering and the actual song, combined with the title of the song, is just too irresistable to edit.

It's like when you watch a competition and the dancers are all noodly and lame and then suddenly they spring into action. That sudden perceptual shock is kick-ass. To me.

The other nice thing about noodly introductions is that, as a dancer and listener, I know what the song is going to become whereas a lot of other people don't, which lets me get to my favorite follows that much easier, since everyone else is standing around going "should I ask her to dance, or not? this song is weird!" hehe.

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#97 Post by CafeSavoy » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:59 pm

julius wrote:I actually like the introductions of Now You Has Jazz (Bing and Louis) and Massachusetts (Maxine). I realize you could chop out the first 43 seconds of NYHJ, but the contrast between the meandering and the actual song, combined with the title of the song, is just too irresistable to edit.

It's like when you watch a competition and the dancers are all noodly and lame and then suddenly they spring into action. That sudden perceptual shock is kick-ass. To me.

The other nice thing about noodly introductions is that, as a dancer and listener, I know what the song is going to become whereas a lot of other people don't, which lets me get to my favorite follows that much easier, since everyone else is standing around going "should I ask her to dance, or not? this song is weird!" hehe.
If you don't edit or cue up that song for a contest, the dancers will only get the meandering intro. That's fine for dancing but not for a competition where you might only get 45 to 90 seconds of a song.

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#98 Post by CafeSavoy » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:20 pm

julius wrote:[
This implies that the DJ has as much claim on editing music as the musician did. Which, to overuse my pet phrase, is mind-boggling.

To me, the beauty of jazz is that so much of it emerges directly from the heart, head, and fingers/throat of the musician, unfiltered in live performance. Sometimes there are clams. Sometimes a solo is awkward. Sometimes the phrasing is lame. But when the musician or producer chose that particular cut to release, that lameness was included. That's their artistic decision.

DJs make a commercial decision to edit. I think that is significantly different.

Like I said before, keep on editing if you want to. I personally don't like second-guessing what the musician intended us to hear -- which reiterates my feeling that if the musician intended us to dance to it, why would they put out a cut with such undanceable parts? In other words, why are we modifying the music to fit the dance? To stretch the analogy, isn't that a bit like recording a disco version of swing music so people can hustle to it?
You don't think producers don't make commercial decisions when producing records? You really think that all recorded music is unfiltered from the heart of the musicians? If that was true they wouldn't use arrangements and have multiple takes. How do you feel about playing alternate takes that weren't originally released? They represent other than the official view of the song.

Also when djing a song from a concept album or a suite, do you play the entire suite or album or do you choose to second guess the artists vision by selectively playing cuts from the suite/album. Granted choosing parts of a whole is different from editing parts from a whole but the concept is the same. You are choosing which parts of the whole you are going to present on a particular night for a particular crowd. Granted we don't have the chops of a Duke, but he also would adjust his music to solicit a particular response from the crowd. In the liner notes to "Bragging in Brass" it is mentioned that he would change arrangements during a band break if the crowd wasn't dancing or responding like he wanted.

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#99 Post by Greg Avakian » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:15 pm

julius wrote: DJs make a commercial decision to edit. I think that is significantly different.
Julius, it sounds (to me) like you are perhaps romanticizing musicians.
(Almost) all these guys wanted to make money. They sought fame. They sought commercial success.

I'd venture to say that lame cuts on albums are partially a matter of taste, partially a matter of ignorance, partially a matter of "Dude, you're out of studio time and we're releasing this album" (because recording was expensive at first; later on it was more a matter of taste and ignorance...). ...Or in the really early days, perhaps they just ran out of wax. :)

Anyway, speaking for myself, I am choosing to make an"artistic" statement more than a "commercial" one.
No one is hiring me to play edited music or use my editing skills per se. They are hiring me (any of us) because they like what I (we) do. I don't benefit financially by playing edited music, I "benefit financially" (HA!) by playing music people want to dance to. I present music that I like and that I like to dance to; I have a hard time calling that an "artistic" decision, but it certainly is closer than calling it a "commercial" decision...does that make sense?
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#100 Post by trev » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:26 pm

JesseMiner wrote: Slim Galliard - Hit That Jive Jack
Removed a chunk of the "noodley" section near the end.
I haven't done much editing of tracks, but this track was begging for it. I'm sure I've ended up with something similar to everyone else, but I chopped out the goofing around and kept the ending. It's under 2 mins now but it's a floor filler.

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#101 Post by Eyeball » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:54 am

What bothers me about DJs editing anything is that they are so very low on the artistic and user rung of the creative ladder of recording. Only the dancer is lower then the DJ. When you are that low on the user chain, you shouldn't be 'touching up' anything - especially for those even lower then you are.

"Oh, hello, Mr. Louis Armstrong and Mr. Bing Crosby. I just clipped out the first 43 seconds of your song here for the peoples. It was too 'noodly', too 'meandering' for me. I didn't think they'd like it. Hope that's OKeh."

OTOH - if you have no pretense towards integrity and you're just a 'shoemaker' (old Italian expression), go for it.
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#102 Post by CafeSavoy » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:49 am

Eyeball wrote:What bothers me about DJs editing anything is that they are so very low on the artistic and user rung of the creative ladder of recording. Only the dancer is lower then the DJ. When you are that low on the user chain, you shouldn't be 'touching up' anything - especially for those even lower then you are.
So why are you slumming? None of the high class types want you around?
Eyeball wrote: OTOH - if you have no pretense towards integrity and you're just a 'shoemaker' (old Italian expression), go for it.
Ah, one of those who feels that useless art is more valuable than useful art. Do you also think that listening music is higher art than dancing music?

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#103 Post by Eyeball » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:34 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:
So why are you slumming? None of the high class types want you around?
Why are you personally insulting me? Does the truth hit too close to your home?
Eyeball wrote: OTOH - if you have no pretense towards integrity and you're just a 'shoemaker' (old Italian expression), go for it.
Ah, one of those who feels that useless art is more valuable than useful art. Do you also think that listening music is higher art than dancing music?[/quote]

"One of those"? What's that mean?

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#104 Post by Lawrence » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:05 pm

julius wrote: To me, the beauty of jazz is that so much of it emerges directly from the heart, head, and fingers/throat of the musician, unfiltered in live performance. Sometimes there are clams. Sometimes a solo is awkward. Sometimes the phrasing is lame. But when the musician or producer chose that particular cut to release, that lameness was included. That's their artistic decision.

DJs make a commercial decision to edit. I think that is significantly different.
Wait a sec... we can make MONEY by editing recordings so they are more danceable? :shock: Who is doing that and where can I get some? :P

Are you seriously saying that the music industry is all about art and I am just a DJ shyster flexing my commercial muscles by rudimentarily editing a handful of recordings (on my piece-of-shyte home computer) so they are more dance-friendly? 8) Your "music is an untouchable art" position would put most of the musicians I know on the floor laughing.

Sure, the ideal is being handed a perfect 3:30 song as-is, and that does make up more than 90% of what we all play. But if we feel the urge to edit one or two songs here and there for length, I really don't see the great offense. Seriously, perspective please....
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#105 Post by CafeSavoy » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:19 pm

Eyeball wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:
So why are you slumming? None of the high class types want you around?
Why are you personally insulting me? Does the truth hit too close to your home?
Let's recap what you said.
Eyeball wrote:What bothers me about DJs editing anything is that they are so very low on the artistic and user rung of the creative ladder of recording. Only the dancer is lower then the DJ. When you are that low on the user chain, you shouldn't be 'touching up' anything - especially for those even lower then you are.
I think you were the only one doing any insulting. You insulted both djs and dancers. I merely asked why if you had such low opinions of both dancers and djs, you choose to associate with them. The question stills stands.

As to whether I feel insulted, I don't have good editing skills so I normally barely edit beyond trimming songs to get rid of dead air at the beginning and ending of songs. But I do think there are songs that could benefit from edting and I would like better editing skills worthy of the songs. But I can also respect those whose theology keeps them from editing songs. I think it's a matter of personal choice. So what kind of DJ are you? Do you dj for the dancers or do you preach to them?

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