Regarding "classic" and "groove" style s

[KevinSchaper]

...and that reminds me, somebody said to me not long ago: "well, just cuz something's slow doesn't mean it has to be groovy" with groovy being a perjorative term.. and I just thought to myself, "well, yeah, a lotta slow songs suck, that's true"

[Lawrence]

Words and terminology change over time, new slang is created, old definitions die and become less relevant. For example, in the 1940s, what did the word "gay" mean? It meant "happy" or something to that effect. Who uses the word in that manner these days? Nobody does. The old definition is still true, it is still in the dictionary, it is just not relevant, you only hear it in old songs and old movies.

Like the Fred Astaire movie, "The Gay Divorcee?" I'm still amazed that they made a movie in the 40s about Astaire getting divorced because he was a homosexual dancer (who, I might add, only danced to "Original" Swing music)!! And we say attitudes and social graces were stiphled in the 40s....

I think everybody knows what I meant. For a second, I thought about doing some research on the origin of the word "gay." I could tell you exactly when it transitioned. Maybe, I did not go far enough back. Who knows.

But, that is not the point of this thread. I don't care that much about it. Everybody got my point, I think.

Language is not static.

Dude... I was AGREEING with you by being sarcastic! Did you REALLY think that Fred Astaire ever did a film about "coming out?!?!"

Correction on myself: the movie is from 1934, not the 40s.

[CafeSavoy]

I also question that statement about music definitions being time tested.
Last time I noticed, definitions were still constantly evolving.
Think about all the music terminology that has evolved since the 1940,
too much to name. Nobody was working from a central music definitions.
In a organic, unorganized, unplanned way, words were born (heavy metal,
acid jazz, techno, rock and roll, jungle house, etc...). I don't think
we have stopped creating new music sub categories.

it is true that music definitions are constantly evolving.
but we aren't musicians nor are we pushing music definitions
in response to changes in the music. but that's beside the point.
what is at issue here is that some dancers have decided to rename
another group of dancers (generally those dancers whose style and
musical tastes they do not like). and to do so, they have arbitrarily
assigned a term because that amorphous group of dancers generally like
getting in the groove. but every musician and dancer like getting into
the groove. if you aren't into your groove, you aren't having fun.

so the use of the term groove to describe a group of music and is vague
and non-specific. is all post swing era jazz music groove?
can swing era music be groove? how much groove qualifies a dancer as "groove"?
by groove do they mean a blues feeling? and why is that a bad thing?

[SirScratchAlot]

It's a tough call though, since the people in Seattle already playing vintage are way better DJ's and more established.

I'm hoping to develop a reputation as a DJ who plays all kinds of music depending on what crowd shows up, but I think I have my work cut out for me!

Seattle is one of the strong holds for traditional Lindy Hop. And as you stated the DJs (as well as the scene) has become successful and draw for those who intend to travel there. simply put , It has certainly put them on the map , not only in style of music, but in their incredible abilities.

I for one would hate to see it change .....

[Lawrence]

it is true that music definitions are constantly evolving.
but we aren't musicians nor are we pushing music definitions
in response to changes in the music.

I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking that DJs create the music so as to push the definitions. The analytical (dare I say academic) categorization always follows the actual creation, and it is done by people trying to explain the change in the music in language, not musical, terms. Moreover, we're trying to explain it in dancability terms, which has not accompanied the evolution of the music because Lindy Hop "missed" so much of that evolution, thus making it even more "necessary" to create terms that explains/denotes the obvious difference between different types of music we find danceable: e.g., Chick Webb and Gene Harris. Because Lindy Hop and social dancing "missed" so much evolution, the discussion is absolutely inevitable.

what is at issue here is that some dancers have decided to rename
another group of dancers (generally those dancers whose style and
musical tastes they do not like). and to do so, they have arbitrarily
assigned a term because that amorphous group of dancers generally like
getting in the groove.

In my perception, "groove" dancers adopted the term, themselves. I first used the "groove" term for Lindy Hop music to describe the difference between New and Old Testament Basie when I lived in Chicago way back during the pre-Yehoodi, internet swing mailing list days. The New Testament played what I called "Groove Swing" because of the deeper "groove" in the bass-laden rhythm. I don't know if my stumbling upon that term started it all, but the fact that others used it elsewhere (presumably sua sponte) shows to me that there is some objective, descriptive accuracy to the term, despite some people's objections.

so the use of the term groove to describe a group of music and is vague
and non-specific. is all post swing era jazz music groove?
can swing era music be groove? how much groove qualifies a dancer as "groove"?
by groove do they mean a blues feeling? and why is that a bad thing?

Here's a very loose definition from my website. I'd appreciate feedback:

Count Basie's New Testament Band began the Groove Swing trend in the 1950s when amplification allowed the Bass player to reduce his attack and sustain each note to provide a mellower, "groovier" rhythm that rolls a bit more fluidly than other swing music. Other "Soul Jazz" musicians of the 1960s, 70, 80s, and even 90s took the small-band formula of Mainstream Jazz and injected some "uumph!" into the rhythm, developing that Groove into a sub-genre of its own so popular that it has its own venue in it name: Lindy Groove, in L.A. In the spectrum of music, it falls more on the Blues side of the fence between Jazz and Blues. Gene Harris, Jack MacDuff, Charles Brown, Al Grey, Ray Brown, and even modern musicians like Barbara Morrison produce this sound at it best.

[djstarr]

Seattle is one of the strong holds for traditional Lindy Hop. And as you stated the DJs (as well as the scene) has become successful and draw for those who intend to travel there. simply put , It has certainly put them on the map , not only in style of music, but in their incredible abilities.

I for one would hate to see it change .....

What a nice compliment Peter - yes I feel very lucky to be in a scene with such incredible talent.

I'm really looking forward to you and Sugar Sullivan coming up in September.

And don't worry - I love the traditional music too much to not play it - I'm just aiming for a more diverse approach.

[SirScratchAlot]

Seattle is one of the strong holds for traditional Lindy Hop. And as you stated the DJs (as well as the scene) has become successful and draw for those who intend to travel there. simply put , It has certainly put them on the map , not only in style of music, but in their incredible abilities.

I for one would hate to see it change .....

What a nice compliment Peter - yes I feel very lucky to be in a scene with such incredible talent.

I'm really looking forward to you and Sugar Sullivan coming up in September.

And don't worry - I love the traditional music too much to not play it - I'm just aiming for a more diverse approach.

Well, it's true, I beleive Seattle is Tad above LA now...and I have other friends from down here that tend to agree.

Yea, I love seattle, I can;t wait to get up there. and Yes, You all get to men Sugar Sullivan , she is super human Being and an awesome dancer!
After all , how many Harvest Moon Ball winners do you get to meet?


Seattle Rocks because you down have any Juke Box DJ's that play everything under the sun...Thats the great thing about being up there, you can acually dance every song all night, and not get bored. and when ya do sit it's because your tied not becaue the music lame. Keep the theme DJing going, thats what is so good. if you want to diversify, play more hot jazz or stuff from the 20's.....

don't follow in our scenes steps....we suck.

[Travis]

Well, it's true, I beleive Seattle is Tad above LA now...and I have other friends from down here that tend to agree.

..don't follow in our scenes steps....we suck.

Since I've only been to LA for CH and the last 2 exchanges I can't agree or disagree with this (though I also appreciate the compliment).

One thing I do know is I am always jealous of all the opportunities you have in SoCal for live music - Seattle can't touch you there.

[julius]

I'd appreciate feedback:

You are a doofball, and your writing is pompous.

[KevinSchaper]

Seattle Rocks because you down have any Juke Box DJ's that play everything under the sun...Thats the great thing about being up there, you can acually dance every song all night, and not get bored. and when ya do sit it's because your tied not becaue the music lame. Keep the theme DJing going, thats what is so good. if you want to diversify, play more hot jazz or stuff from the 20's.....

Honestly, I get pretty bored at the late nights in seattle lately.. too many djs with too little range, the same way I've felt about plenty of "groove" focused events...

I'm incredibly excited about Sugar Sullivan though, so I'm gonna do the morning classes and just skip late night next time around.

[CafeSavoy]

if you want to diversify, play more hot jazz or stuff from the 20's.....

as an aside, is 20's jazz lindy hop music?

[main_stem]

Seattle Rocks because you down have any Juke Box DJ's that play everything under the sun...Thats the great thing about being up there, you can acually dance every song all night, and not get bored.

Oh if only that were true. We have our share of the Jukebox DJs. One imparticular has been getting a lot more "air time" as of late and he spins the same music every week. Literally. Hell you could set you watch to him.

I agree with Kevin S our late night up here have sucked ass as of late. For better or worse Seattle has gotten a reputation for being a fast music city. So when DJ's come in they feel they have something to prove and only play fast music, oblivious to the fact that the crowd ain't with them. Now, I'm not advicating playing "Wade in the F^&k&*g Water" mind you; I would just like to see the DJs connect with their audience. At least make an efort and not come in with an agenda.

The only thing worse then seeing a DJ bomb; is seeing one who is oblivious to the fact.

[djstarr]

Seattle Rocks because you down have any Juke Box DJ's that play everything under the sun...Thats the great thing about being up there, you can acually dance every song all night, and not get bored. and when ya do sit it's because your tied not becaue the music lame. Keep the theme DJing going, thats what is so good. if you want to diversify, play more hot jazz or stuff from the 20's.....

Thanks for the encouragement Peter! When you come up to Seattle they are "special weekends" and all the good DJ's get air time; we do have some regular DJ's who people don't like.

What do you mean by theme DJing? Concentrating on specific artists, decades etc?

I like the stuff from the 20's --- Seattle dancers are getting better at their Charleston (my answer for Rayned) --- I think it should get played more.

I also believe modern bands should get more airtime; Kevin S is absolutely correct in that Seattle's live music scene is poor; I feel by DJ'ing bands that get hired in Seattle that helps promote the band, and maybe we will get more live music.

There is also starting to be some backlash against traditional music - at least among my peers, which are your average social dancers (i.e. not performance level). If the same tempo or sound is played all the time, people will naturally get tired of it. So to me that's the challenge --- how to keep everybody from getting bored.

[djstarr]

I agree with Kevin S our late night up here have sucked ass as of late. For better or worse Seattle has gotten a reputation for being a fast music city. So when DJ's come in they feel they have something to prove and only play fast music, oblivious to the fact that the crowd ain't with them. Now, I'm not advicating playing "Wade in the F^&k&*g Water" mind you; I would just like to see the DJs connect with their audience. At least make an efort and not come in with an agenda.

Yep; when it's freaking hot at 2 in the morning (and we don't have air conditioning up here), no one wants to dance to fast music, especially after a long night of dancing.

That's why I really enjoyed your set you played at the last OOJ; it was music that made me want to dance --- soothing yet swinging.....and I think most of it qualified as traditional

[SirScratchAlot]

if you want to diversify, play more hot jazz or stuff from the 20's.....

as an aside, is 20's jazz lindy hop music?

hell yes, it freakin created it.....You better beleive it! good times!