Major & minor keys in swing music

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julius
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#31 Post by julius » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:14 pm

The A section of Willow Weep For Me has an overall major tonality although parts of the chord progression imply a minor key. The B section has an overall minor tonality. It is coolly ambiguous about the major/minor key, which I think is a key feature of blues, and which makes Willow Weep For Me a bluesy song (even though it has a 32 bar structure).

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la musette
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#32 Post by la musette » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:06 pm

ah yes, that's what I meant to say. :D thanks!

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david
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Minor key songs

#33 Post by david » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:58 pm

I just thought I'd mention a few more songs where the major theme is in a major key. I think it's more common in older jazz tunes and standards, from before they'd started calling anything "swing", but there are exceptions.

Well-known examples are "It Don't Mean A Thing" and "Minnie the Moocher". And there's "Why Don't You Do Right" and "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby". Other standards such as "I Found a New Baby" and "Some of These Days" also start off in minor. These songs often change to major in the bridge.

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Re: Minor key songs

#34 Post by dancin_hanson » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:07 pm

david wrote:I just thought I'd mention a few more songs where the major theme is in a major key.
I assume you mean "minor" key.

FWIW, another song in AABA form, with the "A" in a minor key and the "B'" in a major key, just popped into my head: "What's Your Story?" by Fletcher Henderson, which I've been playing lately when DJ'ing....

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david
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Re: Minor key songs

#35 Post by david » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:13 am

dancin_hanson wrote:
david wrote:I just thought I'd mention a few more songs where the major theme is in a major key.
I assume you mean "minor" key.
Of course I do.

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Re: Major & minor keys in swing music

#36 Post by Haydn » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:19 am

Matthew wrote:The vast majority of the swing music I hear is played in a major key. Do you have any idea why?
I found this thread again by chance while searching for something else, and my first thought was that you're wrong, the balance is pretty even. Then I listened to a few of my favourite tracks to decide which were major and which were minor -


Ain't Misbehavin' - MAJOR

All God's Chillun Got Rhythm - MAJOR

Be Careful (If You Can't Be Good) - MAJOR

Between The Devil And Deep Blue Sea - MAJOR

Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen - MINOR

Blazin - MAJOR

Business in Q - MAJOR

Diga Diga Doo - MINOR

Doin' The Jive - MINOR

Flat Foot Floogee - MAJOR

Harlem - MINOR

Hit The Road Jack - MINOR

Honeysuckle Rose - MAJOR

I'm Crazy 'Bout My Baby - MAJOR

In The Mood - MAJOR

Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby - MINOR

It Ain't Right - MINOR

Jeepers Creepers - MAJOR

Joshua Fit De Battle of Jericho - MINOR

Just A-Sittin' And A-Rockin' - MAJOR

Mr Ghost Goes To Town - MAJOR

No More Love - MINOR

One Scotch, One Bourbon, One Beer - MAJOR

Organ Grinder's Swing - MAJOR

Pennsylvania 6-5000 - MAJOR

Posin' - MAJOR

Puttin' On The Ritz - MINOR

Riverboat Shuffle - MINOR

Rockhouse Parts 1 & 2 - MINOR

Shades of Hades - MAJOR

Shortnin' Bread - MAJOR

Spreadin' Rhythm Around - MAJOR

Stompin' Around - MAJOR

Stompin' At The Savoy - MAJOR

Stop, Look And Listen - MAJOR

Sugar Foot Stomp - MAJOR

Symphony in Riffs - MAJOR

The Big Apple - MAJOR

The Gal From Joe's - MINOR

The Jitterbug - MAJOR

There's Rhythm In Harlem - MAJOR

Walkin' The Dog - MAJOR


- and the vast majority are major. One quick thought is perhaps they need to be in the 'happier' major key to have that swinging feeling that makes you want to dance?

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djstarr
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#37 Post by djstarr » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:44 pm

Minor keys are more difficult to play in. I think if you take any genre of music you will have more music in major than in minor. This is definitely true in classical music [I am guessing here but I think I'm right, how is that for being definitive].

Minor keys have all those annoying sharps and flats to worry about AND they sound sad.

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remysun
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Re: Major & minor keys in swing music

#38 Post by remysun » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:49 pm

First back to the original question.
Matthew wrote:The vast majority of the swing music I hear is played in a major key. Do you have any idea why?
Leonard Bernstein did one of his Young People's concerts on this topic, modes, and began with tonality in his Norton Lectures. Most music is in Ionian mode, so much that that is why it's called the major key. Why? I suppose it would have to go back to musical patterns.

Music likes to travel from tonic to dominant, 1st note to the 5th, and back where you started. "And that will bring us back to do...." Simple patterns, like C->G7 (or I-V7), C-F-G (three chord rock) or C Am F G "Heart and Soul", can be used like harmonic templates for a variety of melodies. This makes writing in the major key, easier, plus the happiness factor, etc.

There's also probably something to do with the natural harmonics of a major third interval. In the Norton Lecture, Bernstein demonstrated this by silently pressing the "echo" pedal on the piano with the root note also silently pressed (a low C), and then striking the appropriate interval and letting go of the pedal. You will echoes of the harmonic generated on the string of the root note you sere trying so hard to silently hold down.

However, this doesn't necessarily mean that major is happy and minor is morose. The most interesting thing I've learned about minor modes is that you can switch between different minor modes, and even dabble in the major while you're doing all this. I think the major part usually comes in with the dominant, since that tends to remain major in either key. But because the minor templates are not as well established, it's not used, except to feel sad, or for a composer who wants to work without a safety net.

There's no love song finer, but how strange the change
from major to minor,
Everytime we say goodbye.
--Cole Porter

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Cyrano de Maniac
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#39 Post by Cyrano de Maniac » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:11 am

djstarr wrote:Minor keys have all those annoying sharps and flats to worry about
ROFL! Minor versus major has nothing to do with the number of sharps and flats. The following chart (stolen from Wikipedia) sums it up pretty well.

Code: Select all

# of   Flats       Sharps
0 	C (Major), a (minor)
1 	F 	 d       G 	e
2 	B♭ 	g       D 	b
3 	E♭ 	c       A 	f♯
4 	A♭ 	f       E 	c♯
5 	D♭ 	b♭      B 	g♯
6 	G♭ 	e♭      F♯   d♯
7 	C♭ 	a♭      C♯   a♯
Uppercase letter denotes major, lowercase denotes minor.

Sorry, just couldn't let that one pass.

Brent

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Travis
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#40 Post by Travis » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:27 am

Cyrano de Maniac wrote: ROFL! Minor versus major has nothing to do with the number of sharps and flats.
Maybe I'm just hungover and pissy today but I think you probably could've made your point without the "ROFL" part which, to me, seems a tad insulting to the person to whom you responded.

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djstarr
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#41 Post by djstarr » Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:17 pm

Travis wrote:
Cyrano de Maniac wrote: ROFL! Minor versus major has nothing to do with the number of sharps and flats.
Maybe I'm just hungover and pissy today but I think you probably could've made your point without the "ROFL" part which, to me, seems a tad insulting to the person to whom you responded.
Thanks Travis!

Brent, glad that Wikipedia came to your rescue on this one. Actually I was just being a little sarcastic; I was thinking to myself why minor keys are not used more, and thinking about the keyboard in my head all the black keys popped out at me.

Of course with the circle of fifths etc., it makes sense that major and minor keys are equal - we don't want to confuse any budding music majors on the forum.

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#42 Post by J-h:n » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:08 pm

I love it when songwriters play with the presumptions that come with major and minor keys, like setting a really upbeat lyric to a minor melody. "Blue Skies" is a great example - the tension between the lyric and the melody gives it such a wonderfully euphoric yet melancholy feel. It's also one of those songs that work well in almost any tempo, so there's a lot to play with for the artist. Then there's an upbeat version of "Stormy Weather" that changes the melody to major and creates the almost exact opposite effect.

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#43 Post by Campus Five » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:08 pm

The first four bars of Blue Skies ARE minor, and then it resolves to major in the next four bars. It starts in D minor and moves to F major - which are of course the same group of notes. I Found a New Baby does the exact same move.
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My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
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#44 Post by Eyeball » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:34 pm

Campus Five wrote:The first four bars of Blue Skies ARE minor, and then it resolves to major in the next four bars. It starts in D minor and moves to F major - which are of course the same group of notes. I Found a New Baby does the exact same move.
What is the difference between a song in a major key with 'blue' notes in it vs a song written in a minor key?

Does Blue Skies modulate from one key to another as written?
Will big bands ever come back?

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#45 Post by Campus Five » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:49 pm

Blue notes don't make a song minor. The chords do. Blues skies goes minor on the bridge as well.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
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