Hip Hop meets Lindy

[Mr Awesomer]

What if someone said that to Whitey and Frankie back in 1935, just when they started scratching the surface? "What you're doing is pretty cool, and maybe fun late at night, but let's stick to the Foxtrot at dances."

That would be pretty lame of them to say. What would be lamer would be those who would insisted on calling this new emerging dance Foxtrot. Oh wait, that would be you wouldn't it?

[GemZombie]

What if someone said that to Whitey and Frankie back in 1935, just when they started scratching the surface? "What you're doing is pretty cool, and maybe fun late at night, but let's stick to the Foxtrot at dances."

That would be pretty lame of them to say. What would be lamer would be those who would insisted on calling this new emerging dance Foxtrot. Oh wait, that would be you wouldn't it?

That's not really the point anyway... I thought we were arguing that we were basically doing the same dance (or basic steps at any rate), to different music.

So the more appropriate analogy would be Basie playing Funk at the savoy ballroom in the 30's

[Nate Dogg]

What if someone said that to Whitey and Frankie back in 1935, just when they started scratching the surface? "What you're doing is pretty cool, and maybe fun late at night, but let's stick to the Foxtrot at dances."

That would be pretty lame of them to say. What would be lamer would be those who would insisted on calling this new emerging dance Foxtrot. Oh wait, that would be you wouldn't it?

I was talking to a young ballroom dancer the other day ago and he said that some of the younger ballroom dancers were doing tango routines and other ballrooom dances to non-traditional music.

They were still calling it tango, even though it was not traditional tango music.

Here is some online documentation of this type of situation, but in the tango world, sound familar?


http://www.tangonoticias.com/tangotalk/ ... &forum=7&0

Here is a quote from the post:

Now I can hear teeth grinding. I love it. I know some of my friends believe that dancing tango can only be tango when danced to the icons of tango music and anything else is sacreligious. They are entitled to their opinion. In my opinion, tango is as much a feeling as anything else and if non traditional music moves Ellen and me, we will dance "tango style" or whatever you want to call it and more often than not we love it. And we have attended tango intensives over 8 days, especially in Montreal where classes were held dancing to alternative music to show how it is the music that moves one to feel the dance and that music does not have to be "traditional".

[julius]

The hard "Rap" rhythm (what I call a "Rap" rhythm) you described that emphasizes the "3" is contrary to a pulsing swing rhythm, but that rhythm works with Bal, doesn't it?

Oddly enough, I don't think balboa swings. This forum talks about the swing, the pulse of jazz music, but I think often we forget that it's about negative space -- the time in between the pulse that defines swing. Similarly, what you do in between weight shifts of a dance defines whether it swings or not. To me.

Also, the "thump-thump" of the songs I mentioned on the previous page create the same/similar pulsing rhythm as swing music: the same toe-tapping pulse that is the "chonk-chonk" of the rhythm guitar in Ellington's and Basie's music. The beat is just more pronounced in modern dance music (call it hip hop or whatever) and the tempo is slower than what I know you would prefer. But the pulse is there.

Basie once defined a swing rhythm as an even, flowing pulse. Jazz guitarists play swing music differently than hot jazz, even though they might be striking the exact same chords on the same beats. Dynamics matter just as much as duration when defining a pulse.

In other words, cha CHONK cha CHONK (hot jazz) is not the same as chunk chunk chunk chunk (swing) or cha cha CHONK, cha cha CHONK (hip hop).

In my opinion.

[julius]

to show how it is the music that moves one to feel the dance and that music does not have to be "traditional".

I think this issue exists in almost every dance community. Homer in San Francisco runs a weekly tango event that plays nontraditional tango music. Some call it "nuevo tango" I believe.

The issue is particularly acute when it is a historical dance. Lindy Hop and, I believe, Argentine tango are no longer products of modern music and have automatically become little snapshots of a moment in time when that dance was king. Some people prefer a single snapshot, some prefer a series of snapshots over time, and some have gone entirely digital and photoshopped the hell out of the dances :)

[Racetrack]

Why not occasionally split the difference? A few years back several artists put out music in a hybrid genre called "swinghop". Some stuff comes to mind -- CD's by Jimmie Luxury (out of print but sometimes available at a price) and "Plenty" by Guru (Jazzmataz, Vol. 1, I believe), plus a few cuts from The Yalloppin' Hounds. The most interesting Hounds swinghop number for me is "You Ain't Sh**" which starts out as hip hop and quickly segues into a jazz number done with an imitation Louis Armstrong vocal.

This genre never really took off, but it was an interesting experiment that might have brought at least some of the hip hop realm back to their roots if it had ever found a commercial audience. In any case wherever you can find any of this stuff, it could be a good way to feed those who want a little hip hop without totally pissing off the mainstream swing crowd.

[Mr Awesomer]

This genre never really took off

Right, cause in general it was just plain shitty music.

[Lawrence]

Lawrence wrote:
What if someone said that to Whitey and Frankie back in 1935, just when they started scratching the surface? "What you're doing is pretty cool, and maybe fun late at night, but let's stick to the Foxtrot at dances."


That would be pretty lame of them to say. What would be lamer would be those who would insisted on calling this new emerging dance Foxtrot. Oh wait, that would be you wouldn't it?

Foxtrot and Lindy don't use the same basic patterns, timing, style of movement, or anything else. "Hip Hop Lindy" does share those same fundamentals with "Lindy Hop." We're not learning a new dance (cha cha, mambo, whatever), we're doing the same dance to different music with similar rhythmic qualities (4/4 patterns with a pulsing rhythm).

Nonetheless, I would buy your semantic argument if I thought you were truly just arguing semantics. But you (and others) constantly use your semantics to try to substantively exclude evolving trends at all dances and Swing events and hijack the term "Lindy Hop" to solely mean "fast dancing to original vintage music of the Swing Era." Same debate, different topic.

As I've said before, I would definitely support changing the name of the dance we do, entirely, from a namesake of a damn Nazi bastard like Lindburgh to something different. And then we can have our little parsed definitions for our little sub-divisions. But I'm not in charge.

[trev]

If you want to do partner dancing to Hip Hop, wouldn't it make more sense to start with Hip Hop dancing and apply what you know about partner connection to it? It seems really odd to me to try to shoehorn Lindy Hop to fit another style of music.

I guess you could dance the same forms but I would agree that you are no longer doing the same dance, as the music (indeed the swing!) seems so intrinsic to the dance.

If someone came up to me and said "show me some Lindy Hop" I don't think wriggling around to Black Eyed Peas would really be an accurate representation.

And Lindbergh was no Nazi, he was a noninterventionist, but again I guess it's it all just semantics

[Mr Awesomer]

Nonetheless, I would buy your semantic argument if I thought you were truly just arguing semantics. But you (and others) constantly use your semantics to try to substantively exclude evolving trends at all dances and Swing events and hijack the term "Lindy Hop" to solely mean "fast dancing to original vintage music of the Swing Era." Same debate, different topic.

Funny, I've never said Lindy Hop is soley fast dancing to original vintage music of the Swing era.

[julius]

Lawrence, do you do hip hop lindy? Do you like it? Do you feel as integrated with the music as when you dance to "earthy swing" or however it was you described the music you most like to dance lindy hop to?

I'm not asking to be snarky. I am genuinely curious.

[CafeSavoy]

Do you like it? Do you feel as integrated with the music as when you dance to "earthy swing" or however it was you described the music you most like to dance lindy hop to?

Based on this and the above comment about hot jazz, does that mean that you don't really support dancing lindy to hot jazz?

[julius]

I change my lindy hop so that it is far more bouncy and incorporates a lot more charleston. It feels "better", for lack of a better word. I guess you could call it an earlier version of lindy hop if you wanted to, although essentially I'm doing the same moves.

Hot jazz makes me move my body in a choppier way than swing music does.

[prosynia]

A few years back several artists put out music in a hybrid genre called "swinghop". Some stuff comes to mind -- CD's by Jimmie Luxury (out of print but sometimes available at a price) and "Plenty" by Guru (Jazzmataz, Vol. 1, I believe),

i've only heard that stuff called jazz fusion.
Plenty was on Vol. 3. and there was little fusion goin' on in that album.

stephanie

[SirScratchAlot]

I lindy Hop to Break Beat and around members of style elements crew and to be honest I dont know what i'd call it...looking at video nothing changes in the dance...