Tha value of a DJ's time

[Nate Dogg]

My point in bringing up all other expenses was to show that there are a lot of expenses out there. To look at every expense and say "That is money out of a DJ's pocket" is too simplistic.

I completely agree. Similarly, a promoter shouldn't budget for all these other expenses and not budget anything for DJs. So the question once again comes down to what's the middle ground? How much value do you place on a DJ in comparison to the other aspects of what makes an event (price for the event of course being one of those aspects)?

Let's say an exchange is going to cost around $55 for the weekend before you really factor in the DJ expense, and attendance is 300. Do you keep the price of admission the same and pay the DJs a small hourly fee and don't even comp them for the weekend, or do you raise admission $5 per head and fly in 5 DJs, pay for their cabs to and from the airport, buy them dinner one night, and comp them for the whole weekend? Surely a $55 exchange vs a $60 exchange isn't going to make a big difference in terms of attendance (especially if it's sold out to begin with).

My view (not the view of anybody else or any Committee I am a part of) is that every slot has its own value. Each DJ has their own value in terms of promotional value and quality of work. Neither DJs nor slots are equal. The prime after hours slot means more than the noon lindy in the park slot. The Name DJ is more valuable than other DJs. It is ok to showcase local DJs at the expense of travelling DJs, etc...

Let's say a good DJ generally makes $25 an hour for primetime work. A few hours of work will be the same value as being comped. In some cases, only comping a DJ and expecting him to be available to work 8 hours or so is lowering the DJs hourly rate. On top of adequate rate/comping, paying his airfare greatly increases the compenstion. It sort of makes up for the DJ being on call all weekend.

Certain questions also come up when you factor in bands and regional DJs, how many hours of DJing do you have to offer? Is a DJ worth $300 - $400 for two hours of DJing? Some may be.

Next, you have the local/regular attendee DJ who just wants to DJ an on hour or two in whatever slot you give them. Comping him would be nice. A lot of times, these DJs are not comped at all. It would be nice to do something for them. I favor paying them outright.

As for the $5 cost of taking care of DJs, I just don't look at it that way. The budgets are set up different (see posts above). I can't isolate the DJs expenses that way. There is more to pricing an event than covering costs.

If there is one thing that I disagree with when Exchange planning comes up on Boards like this, it is that budget decisions are often overly simplified. Unless you can see all the relevant data (current and past budgets, past event history, etc...), it is hard to make definitive statements. Paying DJs more could just as easily come from cutting an expense elsewhere. Pricing is a separate but related issue.

Nathan

[Swifty]

My point in bringing up all other expenses was to show that there are a lot of expenses out there. To look at every expense and say "That is money out of a DJ's pocket" is too simplistic.

The people who have attended the Exchanges with free after food, free airport transportation, free movie screenings, free casino have greatly appreciated those extras. So, we keep bringing them back, while still living up to everybody's expectations on the core elements (venues, music, housing, etc..).

I'm sure they appreciate it. But they wouldn't cry if they didn't get those things either.

Personally, I could do without celery and carrot sticks, get a ride from the airport myself and skip the movies and casinos(!?!?) altogether if it were a choice between that and seeing the DJs (local or otherwise) getting compensated.

I don't see this as an oversimplification in any way, shape, or form.

[Shorty Dave]

I can't isolate the DJs expenses that way.

(Interesting you can't, 'cuz that's exactly what I do when I create excel spreadsheets of an event I'm organizing. I have my projected expenses, projected price, and projected attendance at said price. I can very easily isolate any budget line, change that price to $0, and see what the model would look like without said budget line. But anyways, that's besides the point...)

If there is one thing that I disagree with when Exchange planning comes up on Boards like this, it is that budget decisions are often overly simplified. Unless you can see all the relevant data (current and past budgets, past event history, etc...), it is hard to make definitive statements.
Nathan

True, true, true. And my generalizations are only aimed at events that are financial successes. Any boot-strapped event (exchange or otherwise) I'm only too happy to help out DJing if I think the event is a good thing for the community and/or I think I'll have fun (sometimes one of the two, sometimes both!). When you get down to it, we're all in this lindy thing together - DJs, musicians, promoters, dancers - and it would suck for any DJ to kick a selfless promoter while they're already down (and I'm sure nobody disagrees with this). Hell - just as I think Greg said - Lord knows I've refused plenty of offered payments when I could tell the event wasn't doing well.

It's the penny-pinching-milk-for-all-you-can promoters that, if they don't place a high value on you when making the budget (even though they're gonna do fine financially), why should you place a high value on them?

[Nate Dogg]

I can't isolate the DJs expenses that way.

(Interesting you can't, 'cuz that's exactly what I do when I create excel spreadsheets of an event I'm organizing. I have my projected expenses, projected price, and projected attendance at said price. I can very easily isolate any budget line, change that price to $0, and see what the model would look like without said budget line. But anyways, that's besides the point...)

I understand, I think I was not clear.

What I was saying is that for hypothetical discussion like this. I am reluctant to not consider all the other variables when discussing price.

[Greg Avakian]

One thing I think a lot of people miss is that by comping a bunch of DJs, you have essentieally hired a promotions staff. Comping people isn't money out of pocket, it's money you don't make. And there is a big difference! If preparing a better -or more popular- event makes it more likely that you will sell out, then it is a worthwhile investment! If 5 people makes or breaks a (near) sell-out event, then Kyle is right, you aren't doing your homework.
If no one knows the name of your local band, 5 recognizable names could register a lot more than 5 people ...but like I said before, if everyone knows that the live music is going to be awesome (like in Austin, NO, or the Binge), then the DJs aren't as important.

[Kyle]

However, with live music, it is important, in these lindy times, to have the DJ's balance out the music.

the binge had a classic sound this year with the bands, and in that case, (if you wanted to ) having DJ's who were known for a more groove sound would have helped to balance out the event. so in that case, names of the DJ's are just as important as names of the band.

[Lawrence]

Oh, I have plenty of pictures with the paddle.

I seem to remember someone getting rather offended at the mere incinuation that they were a part of that "fiasco."

[Mr Awesomer]

Oh, I have plenty of pictures with the paddle.

I seem to remember someone getting rather offended at the mere incinuation that they were a part of that "fiasco."

I was offended by the accusation that I was one responsible for the "abductions" and/or their eventual demise. I never denied the FACT that I came across many of the paddles while they were still in one piece.

I shall now go and shoot myself for bringing up this topic.

[Mr Awesomer]

However, with live music, it is important, in these lindy times, to have the DJ's balance out the music.

the binge had a classic sound this year with the bands, and in that case, (if you wanted to ) having DJ's who were known for a more groove sound would have helped to balance out the event. so in that case, names of the DJ's are just as important as names of the band.

Having DJ's who were known for a more groove sound would have made the Binge UN-balanced... if you know what I mean. The Binge doesn't even attempt to cater to everyone's tastes..

[CafeSavoy]

However, with live music, it is important, in these lindy times, to have the DJ's balance out the music.

the binge had a classic sound this year with the bands, and in that case, (if you wanted to ) having DJ's who were known for a more groove sound would have helped to balance out the event. so in that case, names of the DJ's are just as important as names of the band.

Having DJ's who were known for a more groove sound would have made the Binge UN-balanced... if you know what I mean. The Binge doesn't even attempt to cater to everyone's tastes..

So since events are free to cater to particular tastes, does that mean that people shouldn't bitch if an event doesn't cater to "The Binge" crowd?

[Lawrence]

It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using, not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."

Don't forget the frat paddles!

You keep "retorting" with things that not only are consistent with what I said, but with which I generally agree and follow exactly what I did in practice.

1) This should not be such a sensitive topic. If a DJ needs airfare to go where he otherwise wouldn't, fine. If a venue/Exchange can get great DJs without paying anyone's airfare, fine. If an Exchange needs to gain a bump in attendance by flying a National DJ or two in, then it is perfectly acceptable and perfectly reasonable for a DJ to request airfare. If an Exchange does not need the bump and decides to allocate resources differently, then that's acceptable, too. The sole point is that there are not (and should not be) any ethics or morrays besides what the two parties are willing to agree to given the goals they want to accomplish. No venue "ought" to pay for airfare, and no DJ "ought" to accept DJing for free unless they make an agreement to do so. And if they make that agreement, then shut up and stop complaining. (Incidentally, if they don't make that agreement, and the event was a success and fun for all, anyway, then they REALLY should not complain. )

2) On a low-budget event, I personally would spend money on DJs and live music, not frills. On a mid-budget event, I would spend more on music than frills. I don't always get my way. Oh well.

3) As for Austin, the issue is more accurately phrased in terms of how to allocate a given music budget, not the entire budget. The budget we were given for music was bigger last year than any previous year and probably dwarfs what most Exchanges spend on music. Given the incredible talent pool of the DJs that were coming, anyway, we spread the DJ money across the entire, highly-talented DJ pool, not on airfare for a few special friends and then stiffing every other DJ (which had happened before). I could also phrase it another way: I wanted a baritone sax player in the big band, but would have had to cut him to pay for airfare for a DJ out of the music budget. Frankly, it was not a tough decision. I meant no offense to any DJ in making the decision to keep the baritone sax over the DJ ("Ko-Ko" (one of my favorite songs) sounds ridiculous without it), and took no offense when some DJs declined to come (or declined to DJ even though they came) because we wouldn't pay for airfare. I don't see the controversy.

4) We did (gladly) pay Jerry (just like we paid all the DJs) even though he didn't want us to do so because he had fun doing it, anyway.

[LindyChef]

All of this makes me wonder how much impact does getting a nationally recognized DJ have on an exchange's attendance?

Personally, I really don't pay that much attention to what DJs are going to be at an event. What matters more to me is that the event is in a town where I have good ties to the locals and that my friends will be there ... DJs are somewhere around 6th in priority.

I think it would be interesting to see the results of a survey to find out how much getting XYZ list of DJs would affect an exchange's attendance.

[main_stem]

So since events are free to cater to particular tastes, does that mean that people shouldn't bitch if an event doesn't cater to "The Binge" crowd?

People should stop bitching about exchanges when they aren't a carbon copy of other exchanges. And yes I think most exchanges have little to no differnece.

[Lawrence]

Oh, I have plenty of pictures with the paddle.

I seem to remember someone getting rather offended at the mere incinuation that they were a part of that "fiasco."

I was offended by the accusation that I was one responsible for the "abductions" and/or their eventual demise. I never denied the FACT that I came across many of the paddles while they were still in one piece.

I thought all along that it was a perfect prank and considered it surprising that you didn't take full credit given your prankish pride for far lesser feats.

I also find it surprising that anyone would expect that the Bunge would be anything but vintage-oriented.

[Greg Avakian]

Back to the topic:
Another way to look at this issue is to think about what your budget is for going to exchanges, workshops and other events.

As a DJ, even if your airfare is paid, you still end up spending around $100 if you go out to eat and take a few cabs; more if you have to rent a car. So if you did 10 gigs a year, that would be $1,000 -which doesn't include missing work if you go early or stay late (or just need to sleep late). Some DJs can afford to spend that much to spin and others can't...but I would guess that most people spent around $1,000 a year on exchanges/whatever.

Thefore, for DJs who only go to 2-3 events a year I can see that this is not important.
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Two other points:
Do names matter? Yes. People told me how much they like different DJs when I was planning the DJs for last year's ALHC.
I get calls because people recognize my name, or they remember a set I played somewhere. I don't think there is any way to find me (as a DJ) unless you know my name... Look at it this way: Jesse and Rayned don't even need last names!

Is being a DJ prestigious? Hell yes. We're all DJs here, so let's at least be honest about how much fun it is being a DJ -especially when you are appreciated.
I love the recognition I get, the fact that people give me music (4CDs last time I was in Austin, 3 in Denver (plus a DJ CD we all contributed to), 4 in San Francisco). People coming up and asking "when you are going to spin?", people coming up and telling you they came because they knew you would be at the event. I don't know about the rest of you, but although my customers like me (I'm an electrician) they don't treat me this way!!!