Tha value of a DJ's time

Tips and techniques of the trade

Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy

Message
Author
Shorty Dave
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:23 am
Location: Gotham
Contact:

#16 Post by Shorty Dave » Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:30 pm

and the amount someone "should" accept is simply the lowest that the person is willing to do it for...The above sentiments should be rephrased to say, "the Exchange should offer a bare minumum that is necessary to get who they want to come to actually accept the offer."
Wow, Lawrence, I couldn't disagree with you further. It seems like you're teating this as if it's a zero-sum negotiation - the less you have to pay the DJ, the more you "win", and each extra dollar you pay the DJ is an additional "loss" on your end. I guess, from a purely economical Milton Friedman point of view, you may be right (but that's not taking into account the loss of goodwill over time, so economically it actually may not be right...) Besides, the object of the game isn't "to make the most money", or is it? (Maybe we're just coming at things with different underlining premises.)

But forget economics for a second and let's just see what makes sense (at least to me) socially. Let's take the Austin Exchange as a hypothetical example. I'm sure you can easily get Nate, MooCow and Jeramie (although I guess he doesn't count as Austin anymore), you can get Kalman and Jerry from Dallas, and Pattykins from Houston. That's 6 great DJs, definitely enough for an exchange, and you didn't fly any of them in. And, because they're all so nice, you could probably get away with saying something like "Hey, let's face it, you were planning on coming anyways, and even though we get hundreds of attendees and definitely make a profit, we don't want to pay you much, if anything. Every dollar we pay you is one less dollar that we make. In fact, there are other DJs just dying to get the opportunity to say they DJed the Austin Exchange and they'll do it for free, so according to the Laws of Supply and Demand, we don't need to pay you a cent."

I understand that you can say something like that, but I don't understand why you would want to say something like that. Why would you try to squeeze every nickle out of someone and not show that you appreciate them just because you have the upper hand in the Supply/Demand balance and you can get away with it? Assuming you financially can (and most exchanges indeed make money) Why not go above and beyond, just like many exchanges go above and beyond by offering free snacks at the after-hours venue. Surely they didn't need to offer food, or a limosine to drive attendees to the airport, and they could have saved a couple bucks.

But even more importantly, I really hope, Lawrence, that most organizers don't have this attitude when dealing with actual musicians. There's one promoter here in NYC that has a reputation for being as cheap as possible; whatever he can get away with; why in the world pay a band $1000 when I can give them a sob story and only have to pay them $500? And, well, not to get off topic, but let's just say it's been quite bad for the scene and a terrible way of trying to foster community between musicians and dancers.

User avatar
Lawrence
Posts: 1213
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:08 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

#17 Post by Lawrence » Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:09 pm

With all due respect (and I truly do respect all three of you), I very purposefully put in plenty of qualifications indicating that cheaper is not necessarily better unless it is of equal (or, I'll now add, better) quality.
Lawrence wrote:Yes, there is an excuse: namely, if they can get someone else to do just as good a job without paying their airfare.
* * * *
IF the DJ gets more, then good for him. IF the venue can get someone for free who can do just as good a job as someone who demands airfare, free registration, and "CD money," then more power to the venue. (Of course, the operative word FOR BOTH is "IF.")

* * * * The above sentiments should be rephrased to say, "the Exchange should offer a bare minumum that is necessary to get who they want to come to actually accept the offer." (presuming they want good DJs, not just any old volunteer).
In the last sentence, I also used "should" in the obligatory sense (namely, all that the venue/Exchange is obligated or "ought" to do), not in the sense of what falls within the very broad range of permissible acts (including, among other things, what I would do if I were in their shoes). It was a much more fundamental point that seemed to be glossed over in all the talk about what a venue/Exchange "should" offer DJs. Anything beyond what the venue "should" offer in order to get the DJ to say "yes" is gravy... gravy that might very well make the meal taste better and, absolutely, inspire you to do a better job. Generalities can be confusing, so let me make some choice hypotheticals that illustrate my point.

Greg: if Dave, Jesse, and Rayned all enthusiastically agreed to do a gig for free admission ("YEAH, MAN!!! CAN'T WAIT!!!") that you had asked for airfare just to get you interested in considering the event, why should they pay your airfare? Just because they can?!?! :shock: :wink: And why should you feel mad if they decline to pay your airfare while some other Exchanges opted to do so? Why, for that matter, should they feel mad/offended if you say you are busy that weekend but would come if they flew you in?

I submit that there are other, lesser-known DJs that are as good if not better than those examples on a given night. (Jerry in Dallas is my favorite example). To further illustrate the point, the DJ'ed music at last year's Austin exchange was as solid and diverse as ever without paying to fly any DJ in, and--to answer Dave's implied accusation about being stingy to musicians--the budget we saved on not paying to fly in DJs DID go to the musicians. That's how we didn't have a single off-night of live music.
Lawrence Page
Austin Lindy Hop
http://www.AustinLindy.com

User avatar
CafeSavoy
Posts: 1138
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:25 pm
Location: Mobtown
Contact:

#18 Post by CafeSavoy » Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:13 pm

Lawrence wrote:In the last sentence, I also used "should" in the obligatory sense (namely, all that the venue/Exchange is obligated or "ought" to do), not in the sense of what falls within the very broad range of permissible acts (including, among other things, what I would do if I were in their shoes). It was a much more fundamental point that seemed to be glossed over in all the talk about what a venue/Exchange "should" offer DJs. Anything beyond what the venue "should" offer in order to get the DJ to say "yes" is gravy... gravy that might very well make the meal taste better and, absolutely, inspire you to do a better job. Generalities can be confusing, so let me make some choice hypotheticals that illustrate my point.
I can't discus the fine points of using "should" in obligatory or non-obligatory senses but Lawrence's and David's post do raise some interesting questions. Namely should DJs change how they view exchanges. Exchanges are normally treated differently from other gigs because they started as non-profit community activities. But if they are now going to be run as for profit enterprises, should they still be treated differently?

User avatar
Drew
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:00 am
Location: currently at large
Contact:

#19 Post by Drew » Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:30 pm

I don't really DJ all that much anymore but when I did I was fine with a comp and some travel expenses. But I am doing a lot of graphics/ad/promo/branding work for events like Showdown, MC2, and others.

There are plenty of NFP organizations in the scene as well as there are plenty for-profit, but both have expenses, risks, and profits.

I would not expect the billing from a NFP like I would from a for-profit, but I do not work for free. While I am negotiable to accept non-monetary compensation in some situations, I am not in a position where I give my work away anymore, especially when I have other clientele in the swing scene who do pay for the same types of assignments.

While as a DJ I would not work for less than a full comp and some travel expenses, what you feel your skills are worth is up to you.

User avatar
Bob the Builder
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:53 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#20 Post by Bob the Builder » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:49 am

Well I see this from two sides. The event organizer and as a DJ. Because of this, I see the important of respecting your DJ’s and paying them for their service. I also see how paid DJ’s need to be professional in the service they provide and unfortunately I have come across the odd DJ’s that do not understand what it means to be professional.
With payment comes responsibility. IMHO if an event organizer does not have some expectation of what a DJ is going to provide, they don’t have any real idea of what kind of event they are going to run. Expectation can only come with payment.
I’ve been to many events where DJ’s haven’t been paid or respected for what they do. The standard of some of the DJing was very bad.
If DJ’s continue to offer their services for nothing in return, they are only demeaning their skills. It’s slightly different for new DJ’s but they still should be getting something in return.
Image

User avatar
Greg Avakian
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 10:27 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

#21 Post by Greg Avakian » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:49 am

Lawrence wrote:
Greg: if Dave, Jesse, and Rayned all enthusiastically agreed to do a gig for free admission ("YEAH, MAN!!! CAN'T WAIT!!!") that you had asked for airfare just to get you interested in considering the event, why should they pay your airfare? Just because they can?!?! :shock: :wink: And why should you feel mad if they decline to pay your airfare while some other Exchanges opted to do so? Why, for that matter, should they feel mad/offended if you say you are busy that weekend but would come if they flew you in?
First, I doubt this situation will ever exist, but I am sure I am not alone when I say that I have turned down agreed payments for many, many events that I could tell did not make a profit.

In your example, IF an event could get 3 nationally known DJs like Jesse, Rayned and Shorty Dave to DJ for free than I would not expect to be paid. Cool; however, if Jesse, Rayned and Shorty Dave made a habit of continually DJing for free, I would talk to them about their self respect and worth (as DJs).

BTW, I have posted on many threads that I will DJ for free and pay my expenses for an event that I am really excited to go to (Chicago 2 years ago for instance), but the issue is whether I am making a habit of it and that doing so would set a precedent for greedy promoters.

I want to reiterate that I have participated in enough events to know that this (usually) doesn't have to be a financial issue at all, so why make it a social one? For me there is no "philosophical argument" that will replace the common sense knowledge that I have gained through years of experience.

And Lawrence, if Jerry is your favorite DJ, then why wouldn't you want to give him some money?

User avatar
kitkat
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 10:34 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

#22 Post by kitkat » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:58 am

Assuming Kyle was talking mostly about short/regular events, not exchanges...
Kyle wrote:there are too many DJ's who will do it for free.
...
There is no glamour in DJ'ing, there is no prestigue in DJ'ing. There is personal satisfaction
That's why there are so many people willing to do it for free. Small or no charge for a small amount of happiness added to one's evening.

Nate Dogg
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:29 pm
Location: Austin, TX

#23 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:50 am

Coming from somebody who is around Lawrence more than anybody else on the Board. He is one of the biggest advocates of paying DJs in practice that I know. Probably the number one advocate in Austin. Despite, how his recents posts are being interpreted.

In practice, when Lawrence was in charge of the money for DJs, he has been a strong supporter of paying DJs. Less so with airfare. But, most Austin events have bands and mutliple DJs, venues big enough to accomodate 350 - 400 people, promotions, free food, airport shuttles, casino nights, rented movie theaters, etc... It adds up.

As an event organizer, it can be hard to justify to your fellow Exchange Coordinators paying too much DJ airfare. When you add in bands, local DJs, there are only so many available hours for an out of town marque DJ. So, the DJ needs to demonstrate the value in addition to the actual work they do at the Exchange (Ex: being a name that will draw people to the Exchange, you value their talent so much that they are worth the extra cost, etc..).

I think the optimal DJ compensation strategy will vary by event. You can't make too many blanket statements that are true for all events. The Exchange with little or no live music are different than the band dominated Exchanges. In that case, the no band Exchanges, DJs may have more leverage.

I am not saying that I don't advocate flying in or comping DJs. I support it for some DJs in some cases. I do think that there are other expenses with a lot of events, many of which are not that obvious to the average person. The organizers are not always greedy promoters.

From my experience, too many Exchanges end up losing money. I don't think it is fair to demonize the organizers. In most cases, unless you are in their shoes, you won't have all the facts.

Nathan
Last edited by Nate Dogg on Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

BigCash
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:27 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

#24 Post by BigCash » Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:50 am

Over our past two exchanges, I am 'guilty' (other's words, not mine) of asking DJs to spin offering minimal financial compenstation. I say minimal because our offers were to comp the event, and make sure such issues like accomodations and transportation to/from the event were taken care of.

Being New Orleans, we have the luxury of having a large portion of our event be live music (nearly 80%), and are even considering a move towards increasing the number of bands over last year's 5.

If I remember right, our last exchage required a total of just over 10hrs of DJd music. The committee had a choice, pay for, and fly a single DJ in for the event, and let them handle everything. Or offer up our 'minimal compensation' package to as many folks who wanted to come. We chose the second option. Not for financial reasons, but for variety.

I believe we had 6 or 7 different DJs offer to attend, and in return for 1.5hrs of spinning, were compensated accordingly.

In this situation, I find it hard to financially justify paying each DJ, not only airfare, put a per diem that would amount to over $300 for 1.5hrs of work. (Add to that the expected comping of the event.)

Perhaps our situation is different in that we're not really marketing the name of a Dj to sell our event. We're marketing our live music as the reason to come. And if our expectations of the DJ increased, (as in our first option), I would expect to pay more.

Here are some questions...

As a DJ, what would you consider your hourly rate?

Do you consider airfare and or travel expenses the obligation of the employer?

Should the entry fee to the event be factored in as well, or is that just expected to be comped?
Last edited by BigCash on Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Actively asserting my will upon others since 1970!

User avatar
Kyle
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

#25 Post by Kyle » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:00 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:From my experience, too many Exchanges end up losing money. I don't think it is fair to demonize the organizers. In most cases, unless you are in their shoes, you won't have all the facts.

Nathan
That is no excuse for not paying DJ's. The reason why events lose money is because the promotes made a mistake somewhere along the line. (with exceptions that are beyond the control of the promoters, i.e. 9/11)

I have talked to many promoters and wanna be promoters in the scene, and I have, to this day, only known 2 out of approx 50 that are doing things right. (I don't need any examples of successes here, i know there are more than 2/50 promoters in the scene nationally)

Point being: If the promoters were smarter, they wouldn't fail. Yes, they would NOT fail!

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#26 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:13 pm

I DJ for fun, therefore the determination of my salary usually comes down to one question: Would I have gone to the event even if I wasn't asked to DJ?
Reuben Brown
Southern California

Roy
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

#27 Post by Roy » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:22 pm

This is the way I feel about it. If I am going to the event anyway minimal compensation is fine. I like to DJ, for me it adds to the enojoyment of the weekend. In Chicago Swing dj's are paid $10.00 an hour. that is fine with me, I consider that minimal compensation. If that is substitued for comping, or drinks, I am cool with that.

If someone wants me to DJ at an event that I normally would not be insterested in then I would ask for airfare and weekend compensation.

I am not a big name DJ. Me being at an event will not likely increase attendance, I do believe that I add enjoyment to dancers at an event and am often asked back just about everyplace I DJ. Many djs out there play the same thing as other dj's I try to find unique good dance music.

If a DJ's name will add to an events attendance and your events promotion is around these dj's then travel expenses and compensation is a fair request.

I think quality DJ's only matter to long term dancers. I believe most dancers of less then 2 years do not really care what is played as long as it is similar to what they normally dance too. Also, dancers of less then two years prefer music they know, long term dancers are burn out on the same tunes and want something new. Because of this many new dancers into the lindy hop scene that get into national events promotion make the mistake of not having dj's that would appeal to long term dancers, this is when the music bitching starts, and their events in turn are events that long term dancers stay away from or don't return too.

User avatar
gatorgal
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:45 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

#28 Post by gatorgal » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:29 pm

Kyle wrote: That is no excuse for not paying DJ's. The reason why events lose money is because the promotes made a mistake somewhere along the line. (with exceptions that are beyond the control of the promoters, i.e. 9/11)

I have talked to many promoters and wanna be promoters in the scene, and I have, to this day, only known 2 out of approx 50 that are doing things right. (I don't need any examples of successes here, i know there are more than 2/50 promoters in the scene nationally)

Point being: If the promoters were smarter, they wouldn't fail. Yes, they would NOT fail!
No offense, but if you spent any amount of time organizing and/or promoting you wouldn't say anything as blatantly naive as this. You can talk to as many "wanna be's" as you want, but until you have walked the figurative mile in any organizer's shoes, you cannot hope to understand the work and the potential for "failure" (a word I don't like by the way) involved in setting up a successful event.

To paraphrase, the best laid plans oft go awry... despite the best intentions and planning. And it doesn't even take a catastrophic event like 9/11.

I think anyone who has any kind of "expectation" in regards to compensation is just setting themselves up for an adversarial atmosphere, which we'd all like to avoid. Don't go into any situation "expecting" something which kinda smacks of hubris in my beliefe. Start with a level of friendly negotiation and everyone is bound to come out happy and satisfied with the results.

I believe DJs should be compensated for their work, but I'm flexible enough to realize that compensation is going depend on many variables not limited to your national exposure, expected draw as a DJ, and the aims and plans of the organizers. It's not always going to be cash in hand.

Tina 8)
"I'm here to kick a little DJ a$$!"
~ Foreman on That 70s Show

User avatar
Kyle
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

#29 Post by Kyle » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:48 pm

No offense, but if you spent any amount of time organizing and/or promoting you wouldn't say anything as blatantly naive as this. You can talk to as many "wanna be's" as you want, but until you have walked the figurative mile in any organizer's shoes, you cannot hope to understand the work and the potential for "failure" (a word I don't like by the way) involved in setting up a successful event.
I have walked the figurative mile, more than once. I have organized events, big and small. Nothing ENORMOUS (ULHS etc..) but, every event that I have put on has been a social success and a financial success.

Next time, please ask before you stake claims like that.


Events are not a difficult thing to run. Yes, there are a lot of things to do, organize, and coordinate. but by no means are they difficult. Most of it takes common sense, something that is far too uncommon in swing promoters.

BigCash
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:27 pm
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

#30 Post by BigCash » Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:16 pm

Kyle wrote:...Events are not a difficult thing to run. Yes, there are a lot of things to do, organize, and coordinate. but by no means are they difficult. Most of it takes common sense, something that is far too uncommon in swing promoters.
Careful there tiger.

Before you get your panties in bunch about one person jumping to conclusions regarding you're expierence, make sure you're not doing the exact same thing.

I think it's safe to say, you can never make unilateral comments that acurately portray every situation. (Although I guess I just kinda did.)

Every scene has it's own particular set of circumstances. Some places have it easy, some do not. Some scenes are well run, some are not. Some scenes have the benefit of organizers with MBA's and corporate finance degrees, some just have a group of passionate dancers, trying to make things better.
Actively asserting my will upon others since 1970!

Locked