Legit Ownership of Music, a different direction

Message

Kyle · #1 Post by **Kyle** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:26 am

So we talk a lot about how the DJ's 'should' buy legit music to support the artists etc... There is a whole thread about that, so I will not broach that here. Instead, I want to discuss a different angle here.

What about the responsibility of the club to make royalty payments to the artists.

When I was a bouncer at the HiBall Lounge in San Francisco the bar owner would bitch every month about how he had to pay a royalty check for music that he did not neccesarily play that month. Unfortunently, he paid it anyway as there was no way to fight the bill.

As of today, I know that there are not too many, if any, swing clubs that pay for the music that they play. For those of you who beleive that DJ's should buy CD's to support the artists, do you also beleive that the clubs should pay for playing the same music? If so, have you approached any of the club owners about this? Does anyone know of a swing club that does pay royalties for the music they play? (outside of the venues that rent space for a bigger venue that pay royalties each month whether or not you were there)

I hope I make sense. :p

mousethief · #2 Post by **mousethief** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:34 am

I trust private enterprise and entrepreneurs not to jeapordize their businesses by doing stupid things. I would have to say that many are doing the right thing, frustrating as that may be.

You ever try to get an answer outta ASCAP?

Ugh.

Kalman

Kyle · #3 Post by **Kyle** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:12 am

mousethief wrote:I trust private enterprise and entrepreneurs not to jeapordize their businesses by doing stupid things. I would have to say that many are doing the right thing, frustrating as that may be.

What does that mean? 'stupid things'

GemZombie · #4 Post by **GemZombie** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:14 am

I think the idea of royalties for playing a song at what essentially is a private party is pretty silly. Most of the music we play are by artists that obviously won't see any of the money.

I think it's difficult to find a place to draw the line, but I do know that I am not bothered at all by the many swing clubs that aren't playing a cent in royalties.

mousethief · #5 Post by **mousethief** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:26 am

Kyle wrote:
mousethief wrote:I trust private enterprise and entrepreneurs not to jeapordize their businesses by doing stupid things. I would have to say that many are doing the right thing, frustrating as that may be.
What does that mean? 'stupid things'

Stupid things like hiring bands and not paying ASCAP or knowingly using pirated music. Releasing their own in-house promo CDs and stuff. Not cleaning the bathroom. Watering down drinks. Sabotaging their own businesses.

Seen it all happen at one time or another (not just in swing clubs).

Kalman

Kyle · #6 Post by **Kyle** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:34 am

GemZombie wrote:I think the idea of royalties for playing a song at what essentially is a private party is pretty silly. Most of the music we play are by artists that obviously won't see any of the money.

It's not really a private party because you are charging admission and aren't turning any one away.

If it is a private party, then have a membership fee and turn away customers who dont belong. otherwise, you are a public event playing music to a crowd, and therefore could fall under a catergory that has to pay royalties.

HOWEVER, the next question is....if it is ok for the clubs to not pay these royalty checks, why is it OK to make the DJ's pay for the CD's? I understand that there is a big difference in $amount etc... but you understand my point in asking the question.

and yes, musicians do see money from the bars etc.. that pay to play the music.

Nate Dogg · #7 Post by **Nate Dogg** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:47 am

Kyle wrote:HOWEVER, the next question is....if it is ok for the clubs to not pay these royalty checks, why is it OK to make the DJ's pay for the CD's? I understand that there is a big difference in $amount etc... but you understand my point in asking the question.

and yes, musicians do see money from the bars etc.. that pay to play the music.

Venues and DJs can be non-compliant multiple ways.

It is a good question, are the DJs liable for the royality dues or just the venue? If you are a swing club renting space, is the owner of the space liable or the club? Does anybody in the U.S. Swing scene actually pay their dues to ASCAP?

Of course, the all rip/download DJ does not legally own most of the music in his or her collection, even when he or she plays it for himself in his or her bedroom. When he or she plays the music publically, that is on top of whatever copyright compliance issue the venue might have.

Nathan

mousethief · #8 Post by **mousethief** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:59 am

There is a colossal difference between clubs and DJs and the difference is volume. Most of us are good to DJ once or twice a week, venues runs 5 days or more. Venues are also expressly for-profit, while most swing DJs are lucky to cover the next CD purchase.

My understanding of royalty coverage is that so long as one source or the other (DJ or venue) has the license, it's golden.

As far as the moral principle involved, the fact is that businesses are held to different standards. That doesn't mean that I think it's right for DJs to download their entire collection - especially since some of us are in bands or have friends who are musicians. The DJ in question will probably never do the right thing. They'll probably never buy CDs and certainly not enough to justify themselves to most other DJs.

Kalman

wheresmygravy · #9 Post by **wheresmygravy** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:04 pm

According to ASCAP it is the venue that is responsible for the license, not the DJ.

Soupbone · #10 Post by **Soupbone** » Tue May 18, 2004 4:21 pm

wheresmygravy wrote:According to ASCAP it is the venue that is responsible for the license, not the DJ.

This is true. It's why a cover band doesn't have to pay royalties, but the bar that hosts the cover band does.

Toon Town Dave · #11 Post by **Toon Town Dave** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:23 pm

wheresmygravy wrote:According to ASCAP it is the venue that is responsible for the license, not the DJ.

SOCAN is exactly the same.

SOCAN has a FAQ that says if you are unsure if the venue has an applicable license (there are many types of licenses), you (as the organizer) should pay for a license just in case. The FAQ is phrased in such a way to intimidate promoters into buying a license but doesn't go as far as saying a promoter is required to have a license if the venue doesn't.

ScottieK · #12 Post by **ScottieK** » Wed May 19, 2004 1:16 pm

Toon Town Dave wrote:
wheresmygravy wrote:According to ASCAP it is the venue that is responsible for the license, not the DJ.
SOCAN is exactly the same.

SOCAN has a FAQ that says if you are unsure if the venue has an applicable license (there are many types of licenses), you (as the organizer) should pay for a license just in case. The FAQ is phrased in such a way to intimidate promoters into buying a license but doesn't go as far as saying a promoter is required to have a license if the venue doesn't.

Of course it says that. It's an easy way for SOCAN to make more money.

caab · #13 Post by **caab** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:16 pm

This is all very informative. I just recently started hosting a swing night at a restaurant/bar/entertainment venue in town and since I work there and we don't bring in much money at the bar, it's all for free. I spin for free, admission is free, and use of the space is free. So with the royalties, do they pay a lump sum to cover everything, or are they charged according to genre or what? Does my venue need some sort of swing license?

Toon Town Dave · #14 Post by **Toon Town Dave** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:38 pm

If they are licensed with ASCAP/BMI to play other/any music then it's covered.

In terms of CDs, if you are using anything other that the original purchased CD you may need a mechanical rights license. It looks like this works a little different than it does up here in Canada so perhaps one of the other DJs here can elaborate.