Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

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Nate Dogg
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Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#1 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon May 17, 2004 2:32 pm

Sorry for the long post.

While this is not a new situation, I don’t know if this has ever been a thread topic, only something that has been mentioned in passing in other threads. Feel free to post relevant threads if you want, there are a lot of threads, I may have missed something.

With all the file sharing going around, I am starting to come across more DJs who hardly own any music acquired through legitimate means. They have bought very few CDs from stores, legitimate download sites (eMusic, iTunes, etc…). In almost all cases, these are young, college age kids who traded MP3 collections with their fellow dancers, who traded with other friends, etc... Often, they don't know much about what they are have, just that it sounds good.

I am kind of torn, I can see how helpful MP3s and file sharing has been for small scenes, letting music reached places where it was lacking. On the other hand, as somebody who spends a small fortune on CDs, I am thinking that these DJs are a bit out of line, they have not made the sacrifices that the rest of us have made. It is not like they supplemented a decent collection with a few CDRs or MP3s. Virtually their entire collection is not legit.

For the record:
I am not advocating that we not DJ from CD-Rs or MP3s. DJing from original CDs is too big of a theft risk.

I am very much against DJs who think they “own” songs, the biggest compliment you can give a DJ is to start playing a song you heard in their set.

A few questions I am struggling with, feel free to reply to one of them if you want?

Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?

I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?

Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?

Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?

As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?

Are all pirates equal?

I am not really trying to preach any particular viewpoint, I am just real curious as to what the DJs on this Board feel about these issues.

Nathan
Last edited by Nate Dogg on Tue May 25, 2004 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bob the Builder
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#2 Post by Bob the Builder » Mon May 17, 2004 4:07 pm

I know exactly where you are coming from.
When I was starting to expand my collection, I did swap and share some stuff.
However, about 18 months ago, when I started to customize my collection that stopped. I now have a lot of stuff the very few other DJ's in Melbourne have and I like that, so I'm not going to swap material.
I now come at it from the point of view that it is wrong to trade music. And have tried to discourage it.
In regard to being an event organizer and using or not using DJ's with proper originals, that is very difficult. Unfortunately when organizing DJ's I have to put quality of DJ before legality of DJs.
For the record, I do find that DJ’s who have acquired their material legally are in general better quality DJ’s.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#3 Post by mousethief » Mon May 17, 2004 4:27 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:
Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
Impossible to prove. I would informally support DJs who made an active investment in their collections over a CD pirate. But then, I'm an ass and don't have that problem in Dallas. Our DJs rock.
I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?
I've lost $$$ when my original collection was stolen. Friends helped me get started again but I set out immediately to purchase a new collection. Getting help from friends is one thing, stealing music with no intention of paying the artist is another. I'm assuming this DJ had purchased his original collection, so where's the harm?
Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?
He's an ass, is what he is. He's not helping anyone other than himself and he's sending the wrong message to up & coming DJs. Austin just went through a process where DJs would now get paid for gigs - a process to avoid the zero dollar DJ. Do you want to reward a DJ who doesn't respect his artists with cash? I wouldn't.
Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?
Principles are never negotiable. Submerging the conflict only makes it worse when it explodes.
As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?
Again, hard to prove but do what's best for your scene.
Are all pirates equal?
Hard to say; I have some pirated material I could not find or have on extended order. Then again, I invest $$$ each month in new music.

Kalman
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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#4 Post by gatorgal » Mon May 17, 2004 4:57 pm

Good questions all, Nate.
Nate Dogg wrote: I am very much against DJs who think they “own” songs, the biggest compliment you can give a DJ is to start playing a song you heard in their set.
Ditto. If anyone compliments a song that I got from another DJ I let them know about it. This also applies to stuff that other folks have recommended.
Nate Dogg wrote: Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
This is just simply too problematic to prove so I wouldn't bother.
Nate Dogg wrote: I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?
Good God no. Serg has lost portions of his collection... twice. I certainly do not judge him for asking me or others for help in rebuilding his/her collection after a theft.
Nate Dogg wrote: Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?
If that's your only criteria for what makes a DJ good, then probably your "pirate" DJ in this example is not a good DJ to you. I personally don't rate DJs that I hear by how they cultivated their collection.
Nate Dogg wrote: Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?
If this is an issue that you feel strongly about, then by all means talk to the people in question. Prepare for the consequences. Then go about your business.
Nate Dogg wrote: As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?
Again, I can't judge your principals. But I would think as an organizer you could make your preferences known to the other individuals in your committee, assuming there is a committee.
Nate Dogg wrote:Are all pirates equal?
:) Nope.
Nate Dogg wrote: I am not really trying to preach any particular viewpoint, I am just real curious as to what the DJs on this Board feel about these issues.
I personally am in no position to judge anyone on how they built their collections. I know I personally wouldn't have been able to start or continue my progression as a DJ if it weren't for local organizers and fellow DJs (yourself included) giving me music and suggestions. I have tried to "pay it forward" if you will by repaying those in kind who have given me music, and by giving music to others when they ask. At this point, I couldn't tell you off my head what I purchased, what I received and what I "borrowed" from the Broward County Public Library. :) But I have also made a concerted effort to buy more as my finances allow. I also make it a point to buy from, and promote, local artists.

Hope this helps.
Tina 8)
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~ Foreman on That 70s Show

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#5 Post by Doug » Mon May 17, 2004 5:08 pm

Actually, I think that the music industry cares at least as much about whether you (or the club you DJ for) belong to ASCAP or BMI. I think that the rule is that whoever gets the money needs the license.

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#6 Post by Nando » Mon May 17, 2004 7:46 pm

I know of one or two people who have gotten a large portion of their collection on their laptop thru someone else.

Personally, I find that they don't know their collection as well as those of us who take the time to research, listen, ask questions, and collect our music.

However, I wouldn't like to hear of someone who got their entire collection for free beating others out for paying gigs when there are those of us who spend a lot of money to find some great gems.

You can't really prove anything unless people fess up to how they got their collection, so I wouldn't get too upset over it. Again, I find that most of those people don't do as good a job because they don't know most of the music they've ripped onto their hard drives.

And yes, I trade from time to time as well, but I've ended up buying most of the albums of songs I've traded songs for. It also helps me discover new paths to finding good music.
Last edited by Nando on Mon May 17, 2004 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#7 Post by Jake » Mon May 17, 2004 9:12 pm

Nando wrote:And yes, I trade from time to time as well, but I've ended up buying most of the albums of songs I've traded songs for. It also helps me discover new paths to finding good music.
Not to mention helping the people you DJ for find good music. I reserve my opinion on whether the general population should get free music, but as for deejays... there's a reason artists like to give us free copies of their music.

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#8 Post by LindyChef » Mon May 17, 2004 10:51 pm

Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
Call me a cynic, naieve, whatever, but I believe that should be up to each individual's consience. In the end, the only person that someone is answerable to is themselves.
I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?
I look at that this way - that DJ should be able to get CDs up to the replacement value of the CDs they owned. It's like getting an insurance payment for the value of the CDs. Of course, if they are getting a payment from their insurance company, then they should use that money instead to pay their for their CDs.
Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?
If it's just a question of effectiveness, then, well, the DJ with the large collection is more effective. Is it right? That's another story.
Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?
Totally up to you. If you feel that strongly, by all means, say something. Personally, I wouldn't say anything because unless I knew all the facts, I wouldn't want to make an assumption that might be wrong.
As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?
That's a question of liability as an organizer. I think the best thing that you could do is have your DJs sign a waiver that they have acquired their music through legit means. That does a couple of things: 1) it absolves you of liability in case for some odd reason the RIAA decides to crack down on lindy hoppers, and 2) it gently, privately, and effectively makes your feelings on DJs and legitimate music known to the people that count the most without being confrontational.

Actually, I think some sort of waiver like that should be standard for all events.
Are all pirates equal?
Not if you're the Dread Pirate Roberts

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An additional thought ... When I do buy an album nowadays, I end up buying it used. So even though I'm getting a copy of the music, the orignal copyright holders aren't getting a payment for my purchasing of the album. I realize that the copyright holders recieved a royalty payment for the original purchase, but with technology as it is nowadays, it's very likely that the original buyer could have made a digital copy of it. So in essence, if I take that view, I am supporting a gray market that is denying copyright holders of their royalty payments, even if I own the CD legitimately.

If making sure that artists are getting royalty payments from our purchases of CDs, shouldn't the gray market for CDs be closed off?
Last edited by LindyChef on Mon May 24, 2004 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#9 Post by Toon Town Dave » Mon May 17, 2004 11:59 pm

Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ... if you own it, you have the original CD to prove it case closed. The legal means is basically a civil suit so the U.S. equivalent of the Audio Video Licensing Agency would have to prove otherwise. Personally I don't really care if the DJ is getting lots of work he or she will inevitibly come under the scrutiny.
I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?
I'm not personally interested in judging anyone.
Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?
I don't see how this relates to the the source of the music. With the exception that the quality of "downloaded" music may not be as good (skips, low bit rate, etc).
Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?
I wouldn't worry about it. Karma has a way of working things out.
As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?
If you are know the DJ plays pirated stuff, it might be in your best interest to take steps.
Are all pirates equal?
Yes.
I am not really trying to preach any particular viewpoint, I am just real curious as to what the DJs on this Board feel about these issues.
Personally I don't really care ... but then again I don't make my living DJing. Others probably have a different opinion.

With rare exception, everything I play while DJing is from a CD I own, so I sleep well at night knowing I have little fear of being busted. Maybe I'm odd because I also purshase the software I use on my computer too.

I do know many DJs that play mostly music of questionable origin. It really doesn't bother me. I have the added benefit of liner notes and a quality source. If a pirate DJ got busted, I also wouldn't lose any sleep although I would not rat on anyone.


Here's another question for the used CD buyers; It's probably safe to assume that a large proportion of CDs in a used music store were probably stolen and sold to the store. Do you feel any guilt when buying a used CD that it might have been a prized part of someone's music collection?

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#10 Post by Bob the Builder » Tue May 18, 2004 12:22 am

Toon Town Dave wrote: There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ... if you own it, you have the original CD to prove it case closed.
What about music you legally down loaded off the internet. There is nothing to say you are not allowed to put it onto CD. In fact a lot of the legal Music selling sites mention about putting it on CD.
Toon Town Dave wrote: It's probably safe to assume that a large proportion of CDs in a used music store were probably stolen and sold to the store.
I've no idea what the US laws are like, but in Australia, on selling CD to a second hand store, you have to provide a state recognized 100 points ID. i.e. a Drivers + another form of ID (the same amount of ID to opening a banck account). I would be 100% certain that 99.99% of stuff in a second hand shop is not stolen.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#11 Post by gatorgal » Tue May 18, 2004 6:57 am

Toon Town Dave wrote:Here's another question for the used CD buyers; It's probably safe to assume that a large proportion of CDs in a used music store were probably stolen and sold to the store. Do you feel any guilt when buying a used CD that it might have been a prized part of someone's music collection?
Maybe I'm naive but I've never made that assumption or even thought of that going to a used CD store. Most of the used stores I go to are combo used CD/Book stores... and I never thought about the collections being stolen.

Tina 8)
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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#12 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue May 18, 2004 7:02 am

Toon Town Dave wrote:
Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ... if you own it, you have the original CD to prove it case closed. The legal means is basically a civil suit so the U.S. equivalent of the Audio Video Licensing Agency would have to prove otherwise. Personally I don't really care if the DJ is getting lots of work he or she will inevitibly come under the scrutiny.
I don't know about all the download sites, but with eMusic, you can see all your downloads (minus the CDs that have dropped off the service (ex: Verve and other UMG titles).
Last edited by Nate Dogg on Tue May 18, 2004 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#13 Post by yedancer » Tue May 18, 2004 7:04 am

I do get a little irritated at DJs who got all their stuff off of Kazaa or something. It sort of cheapens my very expensive collection of CDs.
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#14 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue May 18, 2004 7:17 am

gatorgal wrote:
Toon Town Dave wrote:Here's another question for the used CD buyers; It's probably safe to assume that a large proportion of CDs in a used music store were probably stolen and sold to the store. Do you feel any guilt when buying a used CD that it might have been a prized part of someone's music collection?
Maybe I'm naive but I've never made that assumption or even thought of that going to a used CD store. Most of the used stores I go to are combo used CD/Book stores... and I never thought about the collections being stolen.

Tina 8)
Maybe the lawyers on the Board can clear things up, I can't quote any statutes. But, I am under the impression that if you can prove something is stolen and you work with the police, used dealers will have to surrender the stolen goods. Of course, how do you prove that you own a CD? Do you need to videotape and have it certified somehow, do you have to keep every single reciept? I don't know, perhaps we all should find out and keep such proof.

A few years ago, One of the local DJs collections showed up at Cheapo's and he could not get them back. On the other hand, I have heard of pawn shops having to relinquish goods. They police pawn shops a bit harder I guess.

The key difference between a used store and ripped CDs from friends/internet is knowledge. With a used CD, you know that it is supposed to be clean. But, you also realize that a certain percentage of stolen goods will also sneak through since sellers lie to dealers, etc... However, with ripped/illegal downloads, you know 100% that you do not have the authorization (minus the few indie bands that actually put their music out on Kazaa for exposure, but we don't play them much).

Nathan

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#15 Post by LindyChef » Tue May 18, 2004 8:23 am

Nate Dogg wrote: Maybe the lawyers on the Board can clear things up, I can't quote any statutes. But, I am under the impression that if you can prove something is stolen and you work with the police, used dealers will have to surrender the stolen goods. Of course, how do you prove that you own a CD? Do you need to videotape and have it certified somehow, do you have to keep every single reciept? I don't know, perhaps we all should find out and keep such proof.
Typically for insurance purposes, a few methods work: receipts, photographs, or a video record. Any of those methods will work as proof.

Once, when my car was broken into, my CD player was stolen. A simple notarized document from both me and my roommate got me compensation for the player from the insurance company, but YMMV.

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