Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

Tips and techniques of the trade

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Nate Dogg
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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#16 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue May 18, 2004 8:35 am

LindyChef wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote: Maybe the lawyers on the Board can clear things up, I can't quote any statutes. But, I am under the impression that if you can prove something is stolen and you work with the police, used dealers will have to surrender the stolen goods. Of course, how do you prove that you own a CD? Do you need to videotape and have it certified somehow, do you have to keep every single reciept? I don't know, perhaps we all should find out and keep such proof.
Typically for insurance purposes, a few methods work: receipts, photographs, or a video record. Any of those methods will work as proof.

Once, when my car was broken into, my CD player was stolen. A simple notarized document from both me and my roommate got me compensation for the player from the insurance company, but YMMV.
Yeah, my collection is insured. A list was the main thing they wanted. Video was also highly encouraged. My premium was paid on the number of CDs that I told them I had.

However, I think the criteria for working with the police to get your CDs back from a used store is different, that is what I am wondering about. For example, my friend who could not get his CDs back from Cheapo, what could he have done differently to have forced the return of his CDs.

Nathan

P.S. - One thing that I do try to do is the mark my CDs, right around the hole of the CD there is that little plastic section, I engrave my initials there. That is one thing that makes my collection unique. However, engraving alone is probably not enough, but it ought to help dispell a lot of doubt.

Toon Town Dave
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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#17 Post by Toon Town Dave » Tue May 18, 2004 8:44 am

Nate Dogg wrote:
Toon Town Dave wrote:
Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?
There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ... if you own it, you have the original CD to prove it case closed. The legal means is basically a civil suit so the U.S. equivalent of the Audio Video Licensing Agency would have to prove otherwise. Personally I don't really care if the DJ is getting lots of work he or she will inevitibly come under the scrutiny.
I don't know about all the download sites, but with eMusic, you can see all your downloads (minus the CDs that have dropped off the service (ex: Verve and other UMG titles).
In the case of eMusic, your user agreement prohibits (at least it did before I jumped ship) use of music acquied from them for DJing.

Also, in Canada an AVLA license is required to play anything but original CDs. The AVLA license for CDs explicitly states your "programs" (burned CD's) must be from original media (tape, CD, vinyl), unaltered and you must posess the original media. It also allows the AVLA to show up at any gig and effectively audit your collection. I don't know of anyone subjected to this but the terms of the required license effectively puts the burden on the DJ to prove that a collection is legit.

I assume the U.S. equivalent has similar rules (note ASCAP and BMI are about the right to play music, not the right to copy).

On a related note, SOCAN (the Canadian version of ASCAP) wanted to charge our local ballroom club over $1000/year for the music played in class. Our club hired a lawyer to negotiate with SOCAN (the tariffs are confusing) and we ended up paying less than $100 provided we pay one year retroactive. If any DJ comes up against one of the licensing agencies it might be worth getting in touch with a tenacious lawyer to aid in negotations.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#18 Post by mousethief » Tue May 18, 2004 8:55 am

Toon Town Dave wrote:There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ...
For the record, my "hard to prove" comment was intended for Nathan's role as an organizer in Austin. He's not going to be strongarming local DJs to prove that they bought all their material.

Can you imagine pulling a DJ - worse, a guest DJ - aside and demanding that they show ownership of the pieces in their collection? I can't.

Kalman
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

Nate Dogg
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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#19 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue May 18, 2004 9:06 am

mousethief wrote:
Toon Town Dave wrote:There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ...
For the record, my "hard to prove" comment was intended for Nathan's role as an organizer in Austin. He's not going to be strongarming local DJs to prove that they bought all their material.

Can you imagine pulling a DJ - worse, a guest DJ - aside and demanding that they show ownership of the pieces in their collection? I can't.

Kalman
No, I would not do that. I just want to know what everybody thinks.

As this thread has shown, there is more to "legitimacy" than the ripped CD issue, licenses and stolen goods also come into play.

Being 100% compliant and legit is not cheap.

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Re: Legitimately Owned Music and DJing

#20 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue May 18, 2004 9:07 am

Toon Town Dave wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Toon Town Dave wrote: There are currently legal channels that take care of this. The rule is 100% and contrary to Kalman's statement it's easy to prove ... if you own it, you have the original CD to prove it case closed. The legal means is basically a civil suit so the U.S. equivalent of the Audio Video Licensing Agency would have to prove otherwise. Personally I don't really care if the DJ is getting lots of work he or she will inevitibly come under the scrutiny.
I don't know about all the download sites, but with eMusic, you can see all your downloads (minus the CDs that have dropped off the service (ex: Verve and other UMG titles).
In the case of eMusic, your user agreement prohibits (at least it did before I jumped ship) use of music acquied from them for DJing.
Yes, that is true, I keep forgetting that. Does iTunes have the same requirement?

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LindyChef
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#21 Post by LindyChef » Tue May 18, 2004 9:32 am

There's other situations that lack of an orginal CD doesn't necessarily prove that you are infringing. It makes things to be a bit of a mess.

* The copyright holder decided to use free MP3s as a distribution channel
* Burned MP3s from a provider like iTunes
* Backup/burned CDs used after the originals are destroyed/stolen/lost
* Fair use situations (i.e. the Timmy remix of Anita O'Day's "Watch the Birdie)

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#22 Post by KevinSchaper » Tue May 18, 2004 1:29 pm

I'm good with the assertion than DJs who don't buy music tend to suck, which sort of solves the problem.

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Kyle
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#23 Post by Kyle » Tue May 18, 2004 2:44 pm

you would be surprised

Toon Town Dave
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#24 Post by Toon Town Dave » Tue May 18, 2004 10:28 pm

LindyChef wrote:There's other situations that lack of an orginal CD doesn't necessarily prove that you are infringing. It makes things to be a bit of a mess.

* The copyright holder decided to use free MP3s as a distribution channel
* Burned MP3s from a provider like iTunes
* Backup/burned CDs used after the originals are destroyed/stolen/lost
* Fair use situations (i.e. the Timmy remix of Anita O'Day's "Watch the Birdie)
Don't worry, getting the proper license solves this too ... I read the AVLA license and it basicaly said that you can only copy stuff from AVLA participating sources and nothing else.

The agreement is required to play AVLA stuff but prohibits from playing other stuff (like indie stuff). It's stupid, monopolistic and screams of anti-trust so I pretty much ignore that clause.

In the case of backup copies with the original destroyed, it may be wise to keep receipts to prove ownership of the original.

Kalman, I misinterpereted the scope of your "hard to prove". It's doubtful a venue or promoter would demand proof of ownership since they have no liability if it is pirated stuff.

Nate, I'm not sure about iTunes. I haven't joined iTunes, perhaps someone else has read their agreement. I would venture to guess they have the same sort of limitation. Especially when the big 5 still don't respect online distribution.

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wheresmygravy
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#25 Post by wheresmygravy » Wed May 19, 2004 8:09 am

This is an interesting side note (well, to me it is), but in looking at the PCDJ site they have a service that is available to DJ's that actually gets you promo copy songs for playing at clubs and such.

The Record Pool
Image

Apparently you get protected WMA's that you can't burn to CD, but can play for your DJ gigs (with PCDJ of course) to promote the new music.

It doesn't really help us any, but I thought it was a bit interesting. Kind of like all those PROMO ONLY CD's that fill the used CD bins.

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gatorgal
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#26 Post by gatorgal » Wed May 19, 2004 8:52 am

I'm trying to figure out what a woman's half naked ass has to do with promo songs.

Tina 8)
"I'm here to kick a little DJ a$$!"
~ Foreman on That 70s Show

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#27 Post by mousethief » Wed May 19, 2004 9:01 am

I'm not. I hit that link right away.

Kalman
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

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#28 Post by wheresmygravy » Wed May 19, 2004 9:14 am

gatorgal wrote:I'm trying to figure out what a woman's half naked ass has to do with promo songs.

Tina 8)
You may see the ass as half naked, I see it as half clothed. You must be a pessimist.. 8)

It is true that I could have used a different image for the link, but then again why would I??

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#29 Post by mousethief » Wed May 19, 2004 9:44 am

wheresmygravy wrote:
gatorgal wrote:I'm trying to figure out what a woman's half naked ass has to do with promo songs.

Tina 8)
You may see the ass as half naked, I see it as half clothed. You must be a pessimist.. 8)

It is true that I could have used a different image for the link, but then again why would I??
I'm a pessimist and I see it as half-clothed.

Kalman
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

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#30 Post by Moonmist » Wed May 19, 2004 10:27 am

It's interesting w/ the thread vs. situations here...

1, My place was broken into, and as I know alot of you do is get the CD, rip it into your computer and what not. Well, they stole my iPod, my whatnot. I DJ from there, because I haven't gotten around to burning a copy of the CD to prevent theft when I go DJ. Of course the irony is that it was stolen. Anyway. One of the other DJs heard about the break-in, and had offered to help build the collection. (Which I'm lucky to say that they didn't take the computer, so the bulk of the stuff were still in there) So, I didn't take advantage of it. But then, someone else overheard us and thought, cha-ching, great idea and get more songs out of the guy who offered.

Now, first of all, I was lucky enough that it hasn't come to that point. But second, I feel appalling that people thought that taking advantage of a DJ who did spend alot of money its ok.

I'm with Nando, I do have some stuff that's acquired via sharing. But I actually went out and buy the CD, either to read the liner note to learn more or doing the nerdy separation of 6 degrees thing to get more artists.

2, This one is also interesting. (Partial hyperthetical) There was a DJ that is no longer in the scene for whatever reason. So, offered up his laptop for all the taking. Just BYOH (hardware).

What makes him think that people would jump on that? I mean the difference between going to Kazaa and his laptop is similar except you have a better stable connection.

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