Non swing - when and how?

Tips and techniques of the trade

Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy

Message
Author
User avatar
yedancer
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:08 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

#16 Post by yedancer » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:05 pm

Nate Dogg wrote: Since it looks like I was unclear, yes I was being sarcastic about the DJing correctly stuff.
Okay, because I was like, holy mackeral!
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

User avatar
sonofvu
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:15 am
Location: Austin, TX

#17 Post by sonofvu » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:35 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:
Hence, if I play a 60s/soul/R&B/whatever song one week, George might get an Aretha Franklin request the next week when he is DJing.

But, it cuts both ways, I got a Django request not too long ago. I figured George's influence had something to do with.
I'm glad that I'm having some kind of influence. I think that it is a positive one. When people come to me and ask for a Britney song or a Justin Timberlake song I can tell them no because I do not have it. But there are two things about those request that bother me. 1) It is a swing event and by definition it is an event that is outside of pop culture. I really don't want any pop culture influences there. 2) Pop culture is very fickle. It changes rapidly and what was cool two weeks ago is today's old news (By the way, whatever happened to that obnoxious Justin TImberlake song that all the kids went wild over? I haven't heard it at a swing event in months). Whereas jazz/swing seems to endure within the swing scene. It is there for the long haul.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.

User avatar
sonofvu
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:15 am
Location: Austin, TX

#18 Post by sonofvu » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:39 pm

By the way, I don't think that the swing scene is in any danger to be taken over by pop culture but Outkast next to Oscar Peterson is a little too much for me.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.

User avatar
Lawrence
Posts: 1213
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:08 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

#19 Post by Lawrence » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:40 pm

I disagree that all non-swing, danceable music is "novelty" or that swing music is the only type of "acceptable," danceable music for Lindy Hop. As such, I submit there is nothing evil with playing around a bit and playing non-swing, but it still needs to keep people dancing, just as with playing any straight-forward swing music.

George, although I agree that there's enough great swing music to adequately fill a set (virtually quoting my own sentiments that I have said elsewhere), I've even seen you ENTHUSIASTICALLY bust it out to many dirty, filthy non-swing songs when I have DJ'ed. :wink:
Lawrence Page
Austin Lindy Hop
http://www.AustinLindy.com

mousethief
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:29 pm
Location: dfw - a wretched hive of scum & villainy

#20 Post by mousethief » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:44 pm

It's not all novelty but it's not all good music either.

So let's take this in stages...
I disagree that all non-swing, danceable music is "novelty" or that swing music is the only type of "acceptable," danceable music for Lindy Hop.
You're right; they're known by other names - Salsa, Funk, Techno, Ska. Please notice the inherent lack of "swing" in the titles.
As such, I submit there is nothing evil with playing around a bit and playing non-swing, but it still needs to keep people dancing, just as with playing any straight-forward swing music.
Man, you just love speaking around your words. Evil?

You know, I'm not questioning the fact that a DJ has played a novelty song here. If someone posted here about a song I played last week, I'd say "Hey, it worked. Neener neener neener" and never think of it again. It's the philosophy of "must-haves" that I find questionable.

Especially if you have multiple DJs, which Austin does.

Kalman
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

paul13
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:13 am

#21 Post by paul13 » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:13 pm

it seems a little snobby to me that a person has to swing dance to swing music. if it swings, it swings. what does it matter if it's outkast, adam ant, basie, or nsync.

i'm not a fan of boyband songs but if someone requests a pop song like that, who am i to tell them they can't swing to that. i preview all the songs they request and tell them if i think it's not appropriate to play at that time. i usually ask people to wait until after 10pm too. that seems to least offend the older folks who think there hasn't been a good song written since 1949.

and i don't know about your scenes, but some of the girls here can MOVE to the groovier pop songs.

it's also good for some of the newer "kids" who come out to see swing dancing done to music they KNOW. i put the strokes on and see the kids faces light up 'cause they've probably heard the first song they've recognized all night. that might make them want to come back and eventually they'll get into the "original" swing tunes too.

throw the elitist attitude away 'cause it doesn't hurt anyone but us dj's.

if you don't bend......you break.
Last edited by paul13 on Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#22 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:20 pm

If anyone asks for such pop music I can refer them to countless clubs that feature it.

How many clubs can you refer someone to that feature Swing music?

I can't, and wouldn't want to, request Basie at the Viper Room or the Lava Lounge here in my area.

People shouldn't expect their request for Timberlake be fullfilled at a venue thats been playing Jazz all night.

Yes, I'm an elitist Swing snob and proud of it.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

paul13
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:13 am

#23 Post by paul13 » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:40 pm

GuruReuben wrote:If anyone asks for such pop music I can refer them to countless clubs that feature it.

How many clubs can you refer someone to that feature Swing music?

I can't, and wouldn't want to, request Basie at the Viper Room or the Lava Lounge here in my area.

People shouldn't expect their request for Timberlake be fullfilled at a venue thats been playing Jazz all night.

Yes, I'm an elitist Swing snob and proud of it.

you can refer them to another club but why would you want to when YOU can make them happy? what would it take, one song? is it really worth it?

in this area, there are a few swing events. not all of them are weekly, but there is a decent variety, so refering someone to another swing night is not a problem here.

you shouldn't have to request a swing song at a club like the viper room or lava lounge. being a swing dancer, you have the ability to probably dance to whatever they're playing. i think people here call them "lindy bombs". someone requesting a pop song at a swing event is no big deal because you can swing to it.

you're right, a person requesting timberlake shouldn't expect to get it played, just like they shouldn't expect to get louis armstrong, basie, or any other artist related to the swing scene either. a request is something that some person likes and thinks they can dance to. doesn't mean they should expect to hear it 'cause as the dj, we get to make the final decision on whether or not it's danceable.

as far as you calling yourself a lindy snob, that's your deal man. i just think it's easier to be more open minded to other people's suggestions 'cause you never know what a crowd might react to.

User avatar
yedancer
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:08 pm
Location: San Diego
Contact:

#24 Post by yedancer » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:54 pm

I play non-swing (DJ Challenge) songs all the time. And by all the time I mean about once every other time I DJ. So I obviously don't have a huge problem with the idea. But the fact remains that pop music--and most other music played as a DJ Challenge or whatever you want to call it--does not swing. Just because someone requests it, and just because someone dances to it, doesn't make that music swing. And just because some dancer says it swings, doesn't make it swing.
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

paul13
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:13 am

#25 Post by paul13 » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:01 pm

what's the definition of a song swinging then?

i can dance the same to a swing as i can to a non swing song so there's no difference there.

if you're talking categorizing, then i agree, pop songs are not swing songs (if you care about labeling genres) but you can swing to them. so why in essence can't the song swing even if it's not categorized as so?

as far as a dj challenge. never heard of it. the only challenge a dj has is keeping people on the floor and trying to keep things new and fun.

just so everyone knows, i'm not trying to start sh!t, i'm just interested in other's opinions.

Nate Dogg
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:29 pm
Location: Austin, TX

#26 Post by Nate Dogg » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:55 pm

mousethief wrote:It's the philosophy of "must-haves" that I find questionable.

Especially if you have multiple DJs, which Austin does.

Kalman
I can't recall anybody from Austin promoting a "must have" policy. You felt pretty free when you DJed here, right?

I DJ just about all the venues. The key "must" is that the crowd must be dancing. Matt Jones, Lawrence, and the Syndicate all say the same thing, keep the dancers happy, only play a request if you want to.

There are few other minor guidelines (Birthday dances always happen at 10:30, etc...), but none of them refer to any sort of non-swing quota or whatnot.

Frankly, I don't know what you are talking about, perhaps you misinterprested something your heard or read, but I like to think Austin is the opposite of such an approach.

User avatar
GemZombie
Posts: 772
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:46 pm
Location: Alpharetta, GA (Formerly SLO, CA)
Contact:

#27 Post by GemZombie » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:50 am

I have to agree with Reuben again, though I'm a little less strict about it. I go to a swing venue to hear and dance to swing. If I want Pop, I can turn on the radio or go to a club.

Used to be a time where this conversation would have been seen as rediculous, but thanks to a few people who started making it the norm, it's almost expected at some venues. At my regular venue, I've set a precedent of not playing non swing dance tunes usually. Maybe at the *very* end of the night I'll play something totally off the wall, but by then we're all about ready to go anyway.

Doug
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:38 am
Location: Albuquerque
Contact:

#28 Post by Doug » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:39 am

paul13 wrote:what's the definition of a song swinging then?

i can dance the same to a swing as i can to a non swing song so there's no difference there.
People can dance swing to someone counting to eight as evenced by too many of the dance classes. But that doesn't make counting swing.
paul13 wrote: if you're talking categorizing, then i agree, pop songs are not swing songs (if you care about labeling genres) but you can swing to them. so why in essence can't the song swing even if it's not categorized as so?
Swing is a rhytmic aspect of the music and is inherent in the music itself. An alternative to a swing rhythm, which is found in nearly ALL rock 'n roll, is Duple rhythm. It is square and doesn't swing. There are volumes written and at least 4,237 threads on swing forums dealing with this issue. An excellent source of info (which includes a cool CD) that discusses swing in music is "What to listen for in jazz" by Barry Kernfeld.
paul13 wrote: as far as a dj challenge. never heard of it. the only challenge a dj has is keeping people on the floor and trying to keep things new and fun.
Put on nearly any piece from Brubeck's Time Out Album. Most widely known song is Take Five. See what the dancers do!! Experienced dancers will enjoy the challenge of dancing in the music if you don't do it too often. Beginners will be clueless, will ignore the wierd time signature, and will just dance anyway.

mousethief
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:29 pm
Location: dfw - a wretched hive of scum & villainy

#29 Post by mousethief » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:06 am

Nate Dogg wrote:
mousethief wrote:It's the philosophy of "must-haves" that I find questionable.

Especially if you have multiple DJs, which Austin does.

Kalman
I can't recall anybody from Austin promoting a "must have" policy. You felt pretty free when you DJed here, right?
My apologies. I should have clarified.

...Watch...Me...Work...

Must-Haves are a DJ philosophy not an "Austin problem." It's a "well, one or two songs won't hurt" philosophy that I question.

I mentioned Austin because I'm familiar with your up-down DJ format. If DJ1 plays 2 non-swing songs and DJ2 plays 2 non-swing songs over the course of a 3 hour dance, that could be almost 10% of the music played that night. It has nothing to do with Austin and should not be construed as such. It's about single - or worse - multiple DJs playing non-swing songs over the course of a typical night.

Kalman
Last edited by mousethief on Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

mousethief
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:29 pm
Location: dfw - a wretched hive of scum & villainy

#30 Post by mousethief » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:13 am

paul13 wrote: you can refer them to another club but why would you want to when YOU can make them happy? what would it take, one song? is it really worth it?
How many "one songs" are you going to play to make them happy?

What about the 100 other people that came to dance to swing music? They didn't go out to go salsa dancing, they went out swing dancing.

So, I've had nights where I have literally gotten a dozen requests from dancers for pop songs (the same half-dozen or so). One night, I got a dancer who came to me and asked if I could play "just one song." So, I did. Then she came back and asked for another. Then she went back to her car and got a whack of CDs and started laying them on top of my books! All of this for "just one song."
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

Locked