Thoughts following the Black Cotton Club last Friday

[Haydn]

I was thinking about music and dancing after going to the Black Cotton Club last Friday. Here, people have fun dressing up and dancing to 1930s (and later) music. The nightclub atmosphere encourages people to dance without necessarily partner dancing. Some experienced partner dancers also enjoy it - because of the great music and atmosphere. Some experienced partner dancers don't like it so much though ("too many non-dancers/drunk people", "too crowded"). I love the atmosphere, and most of all seeing people having fun dancing to old music without having to learn how to partner dance.

It's also one of the few places I hear a lot of fast old 200 bpm-ish songs like this or this or this. In my experience, at most swing/lindy hop nights, you're more likely to get songs like this or this or this. I enjoyed the music so much last Friday, I started going through my collection to see what music I had like the stuff they played. Although I have nowhere near as much rare old material as the DJs there (who play mainly from vinyl), I do have several hundred fast old numbers, some of which might suit nights like the Black Cotton Club. Then I started thinking about why the music played at Black Cotton is so different to the music played at most partner dance nights. Well, one reason is because the DJs have such a great collection of rare old vinyl. Another reason for the difference in the music could be that most dancers struggle to partner dance to the old 200bpm music, meaning that it doesn't get played.

I've noticed that songs like these, with a well-defined beat and a tempo of around 150bpm will nearly always fill a dance floor. They could perhaps be labelled 'safe for partner dancing' (people will get up and partner dance to these songs)

• Apollo Jump, Lucky Millinder
  Are You Hep To The Jive?, Cab Calloway
  Beau Night In Hotchkiss Corner, Artie Shaw
  Buckin' The Dice, Fats Waller
  Celery Stalks At Midnight, WIll Bradley
  
  I'm Gonna See My Baby, Johnny Mercer
  Loose Wig, Lionel Hampton
  Opus One, Anita O'Day
  Surrey With The Fringe On Top, Mary Stallings
  Tippin' In, Erskine Hawkins

On the other hand, I've found that older faster songs like these scare most people off the dance floor ("it's a bit fast isn't it", "do you do balboa?", "let's wait for a slower one" etc) -

• Baby Brown, Fats Waller
  Fariboles, Alix Combelle
  Hot Mallets, Nat Gonella
  The Jive Is Jumpin', Four Clefs
  Let 'Er Go, Larry Clinton
  
  Let's Get Together, Chick Webb
  Oh Boy, Jimmie Lunceford
  Ol' Man Mose, Eddy Duchin
  Stompin' Around, Casa Loma Orchestra
  Swingtime In The Rockies, Benny Goodman

What do you think? When you DJ, do you play many old 200bpm songs like this? Do you hear other people playing much of this sort of stuff? Have you seen 'civilians' (non-partner dancers) dancing to old music? If so, where? It seems to me that a big slice of early music hardly ever gets played because it's harder to partner dance to. Which is a shame because it's such great music

[fredo]

I too love the old faster tunes, and choose to play them when I DJ. Depending on the crowd I might play more or less of them. For instance, at the large ballroom in town I'm more likely to play fast-ish old tunes because the atmosphere seems right, and the dancers enjoy it there. At the smaller dance studio dances I will play less of these types of songs -- the atmosphere is less grandiose and the speakers suck, so the old fast tunes don't get as many people up as at the Century Ballroom.

I will play songs like these:

Savage Rhythm - Mills Blue Rhythm Band
Stompy Jones - Duke Ellington Orchestra
Rockin' in Rhythm - Duke Ellington Orchestra (faster live versions, i.e. Fargo)
Little Gate's Special - Bunny Berigan
Spreadin' Rhythm Around - Teddy Wilson
Main Stem - Duke Ellington
Lunceford Special - Jimmie Lunceford
Tickle Toe - Count Basie
Topsy - Count Basie
Honeysuckle Rose - Count Basie
Every Tub - Count Basie

way too many more to name without having my collection at my finger tips...

As for "civilians" dancing to old music, I've seen this happen at restaurants with hot jazz bands, and at jazz festivals, and at some smaller live band events. It's usually at live music events, not at DJed events. And the older folks tend to do more foxtrot than lindy hop.

I agree that old hot music doesn't get played as much as the midtempo stuff mostly having to do with the variety that dances want to have. I think that's why a night club/bar with great faster jazz is a cool place to have in your town. I wish we had a place like that because it takes the focus off of dancing every song and puts it on enjoying the atmosphere of having great old jazz playing in a social atmosphere.

That said, I think if the culture of where you're DJing appreciates old fast tunes, then you'll get to play them -- if they're not into it, then you don't -- or you can try at your own peril! haha

[Toon Town Dave]

I see the same thing as Freddie with respect to the older folks dancing to fast music. It's usually live and more foxtrot/2-step/polka. It's also not that uncommon to see them dancing half-time to the really fast stuff.

I honestly can't think of any dances with recorded music besides ballroom dances (no civilians there), salsa (small restaurant, young crowd) and our swing dances (small, young crowd). The dances the older folks go to tend to have a band of some sort, often playing "dance music", the sort of stuff that Benny Goodman's band got stuck playing on his cross country tour before hitting LA in 1935. The old timers like slick floors and tend to shuffle more when they dance, not a lot of big crazy stuff like you might expect from swing dancers.

[fredo]

It's interesting when I talk to a few of my friends that feel that we should be teaching people to foxtrot or do some sort of two step basic at a beginner level.

I don't mean to misinterpret their opinions, but I think the idea is that much of the hot dance music of the past had people dancing pre-swing-dance dances, some of which are easier for people to move to at faster tempos. The suggestion implies that if we give people a dance that they can learn and use for faster tempos that this makes the music more accessible.

The observation that could support this opinion is the contemporary desire for more "high energy mid-tempo" music because we tend to teach people lindy hop right away, and that beginning lindy dancers are often unable to put their new skills to use at faster tempos, which discourages them and makes them feel like they want to avoid that type of dance music altogether. This assumes that period dancers from the 30s had some background of dancing pre-swing dances, and that this helped them to be able to dance in different situations.

Giving people a dance that they can use to dance to the early hot dance music could be a way to bridge the developmental gap between dancers of the period and contemporary dancers.

Again, I didn't come up with this idea, but I think it's an interesting way of looking at the issue.

[Toon Town Dave]

I'm also in the camp that thinks more of the traveling one/two step dances should be taught to swing dancers. Peabody is fun, easy and ideal for fast music. It's probably my number 3 favorite dance, just behind Carolina Shag, ahead of West Coast Swing (the real deal, not the disco/hip hop variety).

I'd also add waltz in there too because it shares a lot of the same concepts with different music. Some basic waltz is good for any partner dancer to know for social occasions with dancing like weddings.

I like a crowd with some dance versatility. It opens up more music options for DJs and works better with bands who play a bit more variety than just swing. The whole swing and soul movement these days is in part about bringing some variety to swing dancing by adding some variation to our traditional repertoire. There's no reason not to do the same with earlier, pre-lindy hop era music.

[Haydn]

... more of the traveling one/two step dances should be taught to swing dancers. Peabody is fun, easy and ideal for fast music ...

I like a crowd with some dance versatility. It opens up more music options for DJs and works better with bands who play a bit more variety than just swing. The whole swing and soul movement these days is in part about bringing some variety to swing dancing by adding some variation to our traditional repertoire. There's no reason not to do the same with earlier, pre-lindy hop era music.

When I see clips of dancers in the early 1930s, they are nearly always dancing 'ballroom' to hot music. The dancing looks completely different to lindy. I think it's foxtrot. Apart from foxtrot being a lot easier than lindy, it would probably suit crowded floors better, as it's a 'smaller' dance.

P.S. What's the 'swing and soul movement'

[fredo]

P.S. What's the 'swing and soul movement'

http://swingandsoul.com/

...definitely a thread changer if you follow the path towards that discussion...

[kitkat]

It's interesting when I talk to a few of my friends that feel that we should be teaching people to foxtrot or do some sort of two step basic at a beginner level.

I don't mean to misinterpret their opinions, but I think the idea is that much of the hot dance music of the past had people dancing pre-swing-dance dances, some of which are easier for people to move to at faster tempos. The suggestion implies that if we give people a dance that they can learn and use for faster tempos that this makes the music more accessible.

The observation that could support this opinion is the contemporary desire for more "high energy mid-tempo" music because we tend to teach people lindy hop right away, and that beginning lindy dancers are often unable to put their new skills to use at faster tempos, which discourages them and makes them feel like they want to avoid that type of dance music altogether. This assumes that period dancers from the 30s had some background of dancing pre-swing dances, and that this helped them to be able to dance in different situations.

Giving people a dance that they can use to dance to the early hot dance music could be a way to bridge the developmental gap between dancers of the period and contemporary dancers.

Again, I didn't come up with this idea, but I think it's an interesting way of looking at the issue.

Y'know, I always start a total newbie I don't want to take any time w/ (because we're already at a dance) on face-to-face Charleston. Takes about the same amount of time as east coast swing, and sets them up for being able to incorporate into their dancing the connection they'll need in the "lindy scene" later.

But when I asked Peter Loggins for another pattern of movement (again, at a social dance) to teach the same kid, he came up w/ something like you're describing, Freddie.

And sure enough...almost as fast as basic East Coast Swing to get someone doing...but far more reliant on good connection.

And we haven't yet destroyed the kid's natural amazing connection (the kid figured out exactly where in face-to-face Charleston to initiate a turn on his own, and it was his first time partner dancing) by getting him all caught up in the tough sequences of lindy hop.

I think I am going to work on this w/ him for several months, and never let him know there's any way to learn a swingout besides rotating the step he learned from Peter and letting me go / catching me every other 4 counts.

And before he gets to learning "swingouts," certainly every intermediate+ "lindy scene" follow in the room will be able to dance w/ his face-to-face charleston and basic "rock-step-step, rock-step-step" pattern he picked up from Peter.

Maybe the east coast swingers won't be able to follow it, and maybe the follows who are in their 5th lesson of super-yanky lindy hop won't be able to follow it, but trying to learn what they've learned would ruin him anyway.

With a prodigy who's too young to come out late at night all the time, I'm thinking this is definitely the sequence to teach in.





Not to mention, his mother already knows the "rock-step-step" pattern as "beboppin'." So there's a darned good chance that he will get reinforcement that leading follows in these patterns really works in his social community.

[Haydn]

the developmental gap between dancers of the period and contemporary dancers.

I've read this a few times, and I'm still not sure what it means. Can you explain please Freddie

[fredo]

sure. I think what I meant was that the dancers that were creating and making the Lindy hop had likely gone through some dance development with the changing landscape of the music, that most average lindy hop students today don't go through.

Before they were lindy hopping the early dancers were doing the charleston, or the foxtrot, or the waltz, (and other dances) and so had means of dancing to the pre-swing music that was also in development mode at the time. Also, since the dance floor was their classroom, the fast tunes were just another song to have to find a way to dance to.

Now, this idea has lots of exceptions and may not be a good model for why most people today don't learn to dance fast until they've been dancing for a little while, but I think contextually it makes some sense that dancers would be more adapted to figuring out ways of dancing to the early hot dance tunes since they were living through the evolution of the music.

Today the music is more or less what it is and isn't changing as much as a whole. There are regional differences, and lots of historical references for bands to be influenced by, but the dancers aren't experiencing fundamental shifts in the music as they learn. Most swing classes start them off with a type of music and a way of dancing that they then stick to for a while until they figure out that they can dance different ways to different music. So sure, dancers today still go through development in their dancing, but they're not developing in parallel with the music, and so some people just keep trying to push that square peg through the round hole until they get tired and move on to easier stuff that's more enjoyable to them.

ok, too much rambling.

[trev]

I went to the Black Cotton Club about 2 years ago. I remember it being an awesome night of vintage jazz, but the two things that bugged me where that; it was WAY too loud; and when I asked the DJ the name of the artist playing he said he didn't know. Hmm.

[Haydn]

Before they were lindy hopping the early dancers were doing the charleston, or the foxtrot, or the waltz, (and other dances) and so had means of dancing to the pre-swing music that was also in development mode at the time. Also, since the dance floor was their classroom, the fast tunes were just another song to have to find a way to dance to.

... dancers would be more adapted to figuring out ways of dancing to the early hot dance tunes since they were living through the evolution of the music.

... dancers today still go through development in their dancing, but they're not developing in parallel with the music, and so some people just keep trying to push that square peg through the round hole until they get tired and move on to easier stuff that's more enjoyable to them.

OK, now I get it. That makes a lot of sense. So if you went back in time to, say, New York in the early 1930s, they would have 'grown up' with the music, and to some extent, with the dance. I guess if most people knew the foxtrot, then they could just adapt their foxtrot style a little to the music in question. Whereas now, we tend to learn in classes or spend a long time dancing trying different things until we work out what feels right.

I can't remember having seen anyone doing the foxtrot at the Black Cotton Club, but it seems a good place to do it. People tend to either partner dance lindy or balboa, or dance solo.

I went to the Black Cotton Club about 2 years ago. I remember it being an awesome night of vintage jazz, but the two things that bugged me where that; it was WAY too loud; and when I asked the DJ the name of the artist playing he said he didn't know. Hmm.

Yes, they like it LOUD there (the upstairs bar is quiet though, or you can go outside to smoke or chat). The DJ 'didn't know'? Or didn't want to tell you? I guess some people are like that