last night's playlist

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lipi
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last night's playlist

#1 Post by lipi » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:15 pm

because there haven't been enough playlists posted here lately.

this is from a weekly dance in the bay area with lots of beginners and few advanced dancers. it was hard to get people excited about anything above ~160 bpm. i'm still learning, i guess, because i've seen it done in the same place, with the same dancers. i definitely bombed on "mr. ghost goes to town" and "i'se a muggin'". i know jflanger and jesse have dj'ed the same place--i'd be curious to see their playlists, too.


title; artist; bpm; album

When My Baby Starts to Shake That Thing; Harry Dial's Blusicians; 141; That's My Stuff: Chicago, 1929-1930
Lavender Coffin; Lionel Hampton and his Orchestra with Sonny Parker & Joe James; 134; Hamp: The Legendary Decca Recordings
Mister Five by Five; Freddie Slack; 129; Mosaic Select 18: Freddie Slack
A Viper's Moan; Mora's Modern Rhythmists; 144; Call of the Freaks
Are You Hep to the Jive?; Cab Calloway; 161; Are You Hep to the Jive?
Look-a There; Slim Gaillard & Slam Stewart; 179; Complete Columbia Master Takes

(announcement)

(mixer) Blues My Naughty Sweetie Gives to Me; Sidney Bechet and his Hot Six; 136; Complete 1939-1951 Blue Note Master Takes
How Come?; Anita O'Day; 139; Young Anita: 3 Boogie Blues
Mr. Ghost Goes to Town; Mora's Modern Rhythmists; 169; Mr. Rhythmist Goes to Town
Smooth Sailin'; Ella Fitzgerald and her Quartet; 132; J.A.T.P. in Tokyo 1953

(announcement)

The Darktown Strutters' Ball; Alberta Hunter; 155; Amtrak Blues
I'se a Muggin'; Quintette du Hot Club de France; 170; Django Reinhardt & His American Friends: Complete Sessions
Apollo Jump; Lucky Millinder; 141; Apollo Jump
I Diddle; Dinah Washington; 138; The Complete Dinah Washington on Mercury Vol.4 1954-1956
Cole Slaw; Jesse Stone; 144; Original Swingers
Sister Kate ; Muggsy Spanier; 152; John Muggsy Spanier 1901-1967 Classic Jazz Archive

(announcement)

(birthday jam) Bits and Pieces; Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown; 149; Gate Swings
(shim sham) 't Ain't What You Do; Jimmie Lunceford; 160; Lunceford Special 1939-40
(request) Beyond the Sea Bobby Darin; ; The Bobby Darin Story
Mack the Knife; Ella Fitzgerald; 142; Mack the Knife: The Complete Ella in Berlin (live)
Safronia B; Calvin Boze; 169; Jumpin' Like Mad
Alright O.K. You Win; Count Basie; 133; Complete Clef/Verve Count Basie Fifties Studio Recordings
On Revival Day; LaVern Baker; 142; Precious Memories / LaVern Sings Bessie Smith
Now You Has Jazz; Louis Armstrong; 168; Mack the Knife

(announcement)

(big apple) Tiger Rag; Sidney Bechet's Blue Note Jazzmen; 201; Complete 1939-1951 Blue Note Master Takes
Rose Room; Sidney Bechet and his New Orleans Feetwarmers; 163; RCA-Victor Master Takes
Bill Bailey, Won't You Please Come Home?; Ella Fitzgerald; 130; Jukebox Ella (The Complete Verve Singles, Volume 1)
There'll Be a Jubilee; Dinah Washington; 162; The Complete Dinah Washington on Mercury Vol.4 1954-1956
Two O'Clock Jump; Harry James; 155; Complete Capitol Recordings of Gene Krupa & Harry James
Tutti Frutti; Slim Gaillard & Slam Stewart; 170; Complete Columbia Master Takes
I Love Being Here with You Barbara Morrison; 155; Live at the 9:20 Special
Musicology; Prince; ; Musicology - Single
Sing Me a Swing Song (and Let Me Dance); Ella Fitzgerald; 162; Ella Fitzgerald --The Early Years -- Part 1
Swingin' on the Famous Door; Delta Big Four ; 182; Roy Eldridge: Little Jazz Trumpet Giant, Disc 1: Swing Is Here
Sweet Sue, Just You; The Bechet-Spanier Big Four; 200; The Complete H.R.S. Sessions
Ezekiel Saw da Wheel Louis Armstrong; 175; Louis and the Good Book
Lulu's back in Town; Harlem Hot Shots; 169; The Complete Brunswick & Vocalion Recordings of Louis Prima and Wingy Manone (1924-1937)
Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None of My Jelly Roll; Sidney Bechet's Blue Note Jazzmen; 185; Complete 1939-1951 Blue Note Master Takes

Hellzapoppin'; Slim Gaillard & Slam Stewart; 340; Complete Columbia Master Takes
Frenesi; Artie Shaw; 185
Fidgety Feet; Sidney Bechet and his Blue Note Jazzmen; ; Complete 1939-1951 Blue Note Master Takes
Smooth Criminal ; Michael Jackson; ; Bad [Remaster]

the hellzapoppin' jam was at the end of the evening, with just the organisers and the last stragglers hanging around, cleaning up, etc.

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Re: last night's playlist

#2 Post by Haydn » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:43 am

lipi wrote:it was hard to get people excited about anything above ~160 bpm. i definitely bombed on "mr. ghost goes to town" and "i'se a muggin'".
Why do you think those tracks didn't work? And what DID work? Did you get any feedback about your set?

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#3 Post by GemZombie » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:58 am

One thing I've done over a long period of time (months - years) to increase peoples acceptance of faster tunes:

Try starting your set with your average bpm being up above 140 (your is roughtly 137)... those slower songs set the tone for the night. Anything above that range becomes "fast", and anythign below "Slow" to the lesser experienced dancers.

I'll rarely start with a song slower than 145, and I'll keep the range of that first few tunes between 140-170 so people get comfortable with that tempo range. There are exceptions of course (crowd, expectation, etc), but it has worked for me.

This tactic requires a consolidated effort if there are mulitple DJs, or you being the regular DJ. It's a bit manipulative, but in my view Lindy Hoppers should be able to dance a wider range of tempos than they are generally comfortable with. Give them a way to challenge themselves without making it too difficult.

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Lawrence
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#4 Post by Lawrence » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:08 pm

GemZombie wrote:One thing I've done over a long period of time (months - years) to increase peoples acceptance of faster tunes:

Try starting your set with your average bpm being up above 140 (your is roughtly 137)... those slower songs set the tone for the night. Anything above that range becomes "fast", and anythign below "Slow" to the lesser experienced dancers.

I'll rarely start with a song slower than 145, and I'll keep the range of that first few tunes between 140-170 so people get comfortable with that tempo range. There are exceptions of course (crowd, expectation, etc), but it has worked for me.

This tactic requires a consolidated effort if there are mulitple DJs, or you being the regular DJ. It's a bit manipulative, but in my view Lindy Hoppers should be able to dance a wider range of tempos than they are generally comfortable with. Give them a way to challenge themselves without making it too difficult.
Although I respect and understand where you are coming from, why is it so absolutely necessary to force people to accept faster music throughout an entire night of dancing? Maybe (just maybe) most people prefer more moderate tempos for legitimate reasons and maybe (just maybe) that preference is not an inherently evil thing. Maybe (perhaps... wild-eyed idea, here: "trying to think outside the box" stuff) Lipi's response of measuring reaction and just abandoning fast stuff until the evening was essentially over was EXACTLY what a DJ should do, instead of forcing an agenda.

That said, I suspect that showing people how to dance fast and how fun it can be would be a bit more successful than forcing fast music down their throats. Too many DJs misread these suggestions to push an agenda and just play fast music to an unhappy crowd of people who just prop the wall up until the next DJ starts. I doubt Jesse would do so because he is experienced enough, and I have seen other "fast-oriented" DJs in person who shocked me when they adjusted to the room and played mostly moderate stuff despite their high-minded preachings, but the trick to dupe people into thinking fast music is moderate music came off as a bit agenda-ridden.

To be fair, the opposite is true, too. I tend to play faster stuff than I might prefer at our main venue here in Austin because I know that the majority of people here feel incredibly uncomfortable and awkward (ungraceful, weak) when dancing under 130 or 120 BPM (unless they get in a "Blues" room, where they tend to wiggle a lot, which is odd, but another subject). But I would NEVER think of setting my first-song tempo slower just so I can get away with playing slower music throughout the night. The thought just doesn't cross my mind.
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CountBasi
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#5 Post by CountBasi » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:32 pm

What example of a tune would you play as your first song of the night immediately following a drop-in beginning Swing lesson?
It don't matter if your clock is broke - it's the right time somewhere : Slim Gaillard

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Lawrence
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#6 Post by Lawrence » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:28 pm

CountBasi wrote:What example of a tune would you play as your first song of the night immediately following a drop-in beginning Swing lesson?
If I paid attention to the drop-in lesson at all, then it would be something similar to what they heard in class. But, again, that has to do with them, not me or my agenda.
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#7 Post by tornredcarpet » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:27 am

Lawrence wrote:Although I respect and understand where you are coming from, why is it so absolutely necessary to force people to accept faster music throughout an entire night of dancing? Maybe (just maybe) most people prefer more moderate tempos for legitimate reasons and maybe (just maybe) that preference is not an inherently evil thing. Maybe (perhaps... wild-eyed idea, here: "trying to think outside the box" stuff) Lipi's response of measuring reaction and just abandoning fast stuff until the evening was essentially over was EXACTLY what a DJ should do, instead of forcing an agenda.
Because maybe lindy hop wasn't designed to be danced at <140bpm for the entire evening.
Even in a scene that dances really slow, I don't think it's too much to put on a song with a tempo of 190 every once in a while*... granted I do this less often in scenes where everyone start dancing balboa at 160.
But still, I think sticking to a small tempo range for the whole evening would make it boring, even if it were high energy, wicked fast music.

*there was a scene I was in for a year and a half that took offense if i played a song at or above 140bpm.
Jesse (Los Angeles, CA/Hampton Roads, VA)

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Lawrence
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#8 Post by Lawrence » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:01 pm

tornredcarpet wrote:
Lawrence wrote:Although I respect and understand where you are coming from, why is it so absolutely necessary to force people to accept faster music throughout an entire night of dancing? Maybe (just maybe) most people prefer more moderate tempos for legitimate reasons and maybe (just maybe) that preference is not an inherently evil thing. Maybe (perhaps... wild-eyed idea, here: "trying to think outside the box" stuff) Lipi's response of measuring reaction and just abandoning fast stuff until the evening was essentially over was EXACTLY what a DJ should do, instead of forcing an agenda.
Because maybe lindy hop wasn't designed to be danced at <140bpm for the entire evening.
Even in a scene that dances really slow, I don't think it's too much to put on a song with a tempo of 190 every once in a while*... granted I do this less often in scenes where everyone start dancing balboa at 160.
But still, I think sticking to a small tempo range for the whole evening would make it boring, even if it were high energy, wicked fast music.

*there was a scene I was in for a year and a half that took offense if i played a song at or above 140bpm.
You actually mostly agreed with me, because I objected to pushing the BPM of ALL songs up by duping the crowd into thinking it is slower than it is (which I suspect would more often backfire than work), not to mixing in some fast songs for variety's sake. I completely agree that keeping it "all slow" can make it monotonous, I usually make sure to crack the 200 BPM barrier at least once per set to see and measure how it is received (and play more and faster if it goes well), and I agree that knowing how to pick up the tempo in your own dancing is a valuable skill. But "all fast" has the same monotony problems, plus most people don't like it.

As for your one point of disagreement, Lindy Hop was designed to dance to swing music, not to a tempo. And that is besides the point of whether you should force an agenda on your audience. The prime objective of any DJ should be to play to the room; teaching musical lessons or pushing an agenda (be it fast, slow, funky...) should be way down the list of priorities.
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#9 Post by fredo » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:39 pm

the discussion wasn't about pushing all of the tempos up to be really fast, the suggestion was actually to just push the opening set of songs up in tempo just a bit to raise the first impression-average tempo. His opening average was 137, so raising the starting average tempo to something above 140 might help to get to more tempo variety for the evening. that's all it was about.

if this thread agrees that a variety of tempos is a healthy thing, then it seems more difficult to provide that variety if an impression is made early that the average tempo will be 137. I say more difficult simply b/c it's farther from the 137bpm avg. to get up to the 200bpm stuff than it would be if the average were closer to 150bpm, for example. If the crowd isn't diggin' on the 200bpm stuff, then you're still easily within a good average tempo for most crowds, no harm done.

this is all pretty nuanced though, and not worth splitting hairs over. Besides, how many of the total people who come to a dance are actually there for the first 5-10 songs anyway? so this is all just conjecture.

*minor point, but pushing the "pushing an agenda" argument when it's not relevant can also be seen as an agenda.

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#10 Post by trev » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:24 pm

If it's a standalone set, I'll usually try to start with an average of around 150 - it just gets people into that groove - and then make regular side trips into the 130s or up to the 200s, depending on the crowd. But I like to establish a centre tempo that i regularly visit.

If it's after a drop in or beginner class, then I'll start in the 130s with lots of clear rhythms, and build it slowly. Then I might drop in a quicker one to get the regular dancers showing off a bit and to show the newbies what it can be like. But I agree it's harder to reach the higher tempos when you establish a slow opening average like this. But for sure it depends on the situation.

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#11 Post by tornredcarpet » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:06 am

Fredo, Agreed with most of your points in your post, but this one i have to disagree with:
fredo wrote:Besides, how many of the total people who come to a dance are actually there for the first 5-10 songs anyway? so this is all just conjecture.
It establishes the momentum for the evening. When you get those initial dancers moving, the rest is easier. When you walk in the dance club as a dancer, don't you check out the floor? See what's going on already?
Jesse (Los Angeles, CA/Hampton Roads, VA)

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#12 Post by fredo » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:43 am

fair enough. I would agree that whenever I arrive at a dance I'm listening and watching for the energy in the room and what's going on. In fact, if the drop-in class before the dance is bumpin and full of energy it's even easier to start the night off right.

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#13 Post by lipi » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:11 pm

o.k., er, wow. i expected only one or two comments. thanks for all the advice!

1) the dance does start right after a beginner class, which is why i started slow, though i admit i probably over-did it. i think now that it was a mistake to put mr. 5x5 in there so early. incidentally, by my count the average of the first six songs was 148. i guess i should set that as an average for the first three or so, too.

goal for next time: start with three songs around 150.

2) why did "mr. ghost..." and "i'se a muggin'" not work? "muggin" doesn't have a big booming drum driving it along; it sounded a little muddy in that room, too. i think with an advanced crowd, it would have gone fine, but it was too far out of the comfort zone of most people there. ah well.

"ghost" i'm less sure about. someone actually came up to me afterwards and thanked me for that particular song, so i know some people liked it. it's not as "smooth" as the stuff i played up to then, i guess, and it doesn't have a lyric, so it's just harder to dance to. (i could also swear it speeds up, but no one could tell that from the beginning of the song, so i can't blame people not getting up to dance on that.)

conclusion: i'll play "ghost" again at this same place, but perhaps a little later in the evening. i won't play "muggin" again, though i'll keep throwing violin at them till they like it. :o)

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#14 Post by djstarr » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:11 pm

lipi wrote:o.k., er, wow. i expected only one or two comments. thanks for all the advice!

1) the dance does start right after a beginner class, which is why i started slow, though i admit i probably over-did it. i think now that it was a mistake to put mr. 5x5 in there so early. incidentally, by my count the average of the first six songs was 148. i guess i should set that as an average for the first three or so, too.

goal for next time: start with three songs around 150.

2) why did "mr. ghost..." and "i'se a muggin'" not work? "muggin" doesn't have a big booming drum driving it along; it sounded a little muddy in that room, too. i think with an advanced crowd, it would have gone fine, but it was too far out of the comfort zone of most people there. ah well.

"ghost" i'm less sure about. someone actually came up to me afterwards and thanked me for that particular song, so i know some people liked it. it's not as "smooth" as the stuff i played up to then, i guess, and it doesn't have a lyric, so it's just harder to dance to. (i could also swear it speeds up, but no one could tell that from the beginning of the song, so i can't blame people not getting up to dance on that.)

conclusion: i'll play "ghost" again at this same place, but perhaps a little later in the evening. i won't play "muggin" again, though i'll keep throwing violin at them till they like it. :o)
So I was particular looking at Mr. Ghost and I'se a Muggin' as problem songs for a beginner crowd.

Mr. Ghost has all the chain, clump clump, extra noises; it's a very cool song but I don't think it has a straight ahead beat and it has some distractions to it, and it's one of those songs that once people know it they think it's cool, but on first listening they find it strange.

I'se a Muggin' off of the Django American Friends CD is pretty lo-fi and also has some breaks at the very beginning. I don't consider it a beginner friendly song.

I think both of them work later in the evening once people are warmed up and you have a flow, and if more advanced dancers show up later.

And I used to start dances off with Mr. 5x5 or the long Count Basie Shiny Stockings, but now I think it kills the crowd. My opener's currently are OOJ by Count Basie off of Anthology of Big Band Swing and Opus One by Anita O'Day/Gene Krupa. Nice hard driving classic swing songs. Uptempo at 150ish [for most scenes anyway, this is warm up speed for Seattle!].

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#15 Post by jflanger » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:49 am

Hmm...if I may offer an interpretation on I'se a muggin...

It comes right after Darktown Strutters' Ball, which is 5 minutes of crazy intensity. My guess is that most people would either be ready to rest or be expecting something to get them back in the groove.

So a Django ends up being a stark contrast to the energy level of the previous song, and people think, break time!

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