Syllabus for Swing DJ Training

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#46 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:26 am

CafeSavoy wrote:Exactly. I think it's also called growing your base.
I always think of it as "good customer service."

--Stan Graves

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fredo
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#47 Post by fredo » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:54 am

Perhaps I lost my sense of scope. Slow/medium swing music at the beginning of the dance is fairly standard, I agree. I just cringe at the thought of a DJ trying to play music for ECS dancers for a major chunk of the evening if there is also a significant lindy hop crowd already there. That's not what those rules were suggesting, so fair enough, it was an overblown point.

I will say though, that I have DJed after several drop-in ECS classes lately that were practicing to relatively fast, high energy, swing songs in their class. That approach leaves the beginning of the dance open to more possibilities for whoever is DJing the dance.

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djstarr
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#48 Post by djstarr » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:32 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:Debating whether "Fever" swings or not misses the point.
I agree Nate! I wasn't really expecting a serious reply back, just venting a little.

I understand your point about being a volunteer group and trying your best to be democratic. I'm doing a volunteer sting with the Savoy Swing Club now, and we have a similar situation with instructors - i.e. how to steer them the way we want, and how to get rid of the ones that are no longer fulfilling the club's missions. Obviously you need something written down to refer to. So kudos to you for letting us [a critical lot at times] take a look at your guidelines.

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#49 Post by julius » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:40 pm

Wow those rules are mindblowing. Makes sense though if they were created to try to get rid of someone without, you know, confronting them.

See, confrontation can be useful sometimes. :D

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Lawrence
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#50 Post by Lawrence » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:40 am

Nate Dogg wrote: Debating whether "Fever" swings or not misses the point. Lawrence, while he complains about the guidelines, actually follows them as closely as anybody else.
Actually, Nathan, this entire discussion (and the inadvisability of the Austin rules) boils down to the core debate over whether a particular song "swings" or not. That is precisely the point.

I got "ticketed" for playing the live version of "Don't Stop" as one of my "non-swing" songs: the version where the USC marching band joins Fleetwood Mac onstage to provide a horn section and add even more "swing" to the song. (If anything, the song has a Rock-influenced swing rhythm, but "Rock" is not included in the definition of "non-swing" under the guidelines, so that isn't a problem, is it? :roll: :wink: ) The song totally "swings," the floor was crowded and many people loved it and raved about it to me, including people who don't like me. It was a curveball that landed dead in the strike zone.

But a few people (actually, ONE person) didn't like it because it isn't the archetype of vintage big band swing, so they complained anonymously that I played more than two non-swing songs, citing "Fleetwood Mac" as an example of what I had played. The DJ coordinator (a friend of mine and yours) wasn't at the dance, but still felt compelled to reprimand me and threaten to suspend me if I played more than two non-swing songs again in a set. Without the rules, it would have been a much different discussion and would have been cleared up much more easily.


Also, a large part of the reason you think I follow the rules as closely as anyone is because you and I have VERY similar tastes, Nathan. The ambiguous rule that benefits us now can come back and bite us in the ass later should the person enforcing the rules simply not agree with your taste in music or your opinion of what "swings."

They are well intentioned, and much of them codify common sense if read to be non-exhaustive and subject to exception suggestions on how to DJ; but they are ambiguous and not expertly crafted to be exhaustive and binding rules, which is rather common when non-lawyers try to draft general laws or rules to avoid a rather specific problem: the rules often are not specific enough to root out the problem and often unintentionally apply much more broadly than ever intended.
Lawrence Page
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#51 Post by Nate Dogg » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:18 pm

You know I am a big Fleetwood Mac fan, I think Lindsey Buckingham is great.

However, as you said in other posts on this thread, you pushed the line for a few years. You ended up getting a ticket. You almost forced him to do it.

Besides, whatever song it happened to be, "Don't Stop" was simply the straw that broke the camels back. They were looking for evidence and you provided it to them.

Nathan

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#52 Post by Nate Dogg » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:26 pm

Lawrence wrote: The ambiguous rule that benefits us now can come back and bite us in the ass later should the person enforcing the rules simply not agree with your taste in music or your opinion of what "swings."
Doubtful, the Guidelines can always be revised. DJ Coordinators can be replaced I am not afraid of a Coordinator coming in deciding that everything has to be classic swing big band or something like that, since that is what they like and that is how the read the rules. In our scene, that just won't fly. In your heart, you know that to be true.

The Guidelines have been used to weed out excess cha-cha, hip-hop, salsa and other novelty fair.

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Lawrence
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#53 Post by Lawrence » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:22 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:You know I am a big Fleetwood Mac fan, I think Lindsey Buckingham is great.

However, as you said in other posts on this thread, you pushed the line for a few years. You ended up getting a ticket. You almost forced him to do it.
As I wrote earlier in the thread, I rebelliously pushed the envelope only AFTER I "got the ticket" that night. It was not what ended that run of rebelliousness, it was what STARTED it. (Josh and Xoch later ended it by talking me down and convincing me I was being childish and should just ignore the guidelines.)

Also, I would have stopped earlier had I not received lots of unsolicited compliments for those rebellious sets. ("When do you DJ next?" "Why don't you DJ more?" etc.) Again, I didn't push the envelope to consciously do a bad job; I pushed the envelope to show how I could play successful sets while violating the rules.
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LindyChef
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#54 Post by LindyChef » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:18 pm

Lawrence wrote:Also, I would have stopped earlier had I not received lots of unsolicited compliments for those rebellious sets. ("When do you DJ next?" "Why don't you DJ more?" etc.)
Yeah, but it's the rare person that comes up to your face and says, "Your set sucked." Positive feedback should ALWAYS be taken lightly.

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Lawrence
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#55 Post by Lawrence » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:29 pm

LindyChef wrote:
Lawrence wrote:Also, I would have stopped earlier had I not received lots of unsolicited compliments for those rebellious sets. ("When do you DJ next?" "Why don't you DJ more?" etc.)
Yeah, but it's the rare person that comes up to your face and says, "Your set sucked." Positive feedback should ALWAYS be taken lightly.
Unsolicited compliments were not the only measure of success. The floor was packed, the vibe was definitely there, people looked excited to dance to this or that song, etc.

Plus, there were more unsolicited compliments than usual, and they came from people I didn't know and didn't even recognize, not the usual suspects of stage trolls or friends coming up and just being nice.
Lawrence Page
Austin Lindy Hop
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Mr Awesomer
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#56 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:26 am

LindyChef wrote:Yeah, but it's the rare person that comes up to your face and says, "Your set sucked."
Of course... that's what the Internet is for... besides porn.
Reuben Brown
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keither
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#57 Post by keither » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:01 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:Doubtful, the Guidelines can always be revised.
Indeed. Austin is in the process of updating those guidelines. A lot of the passive-aggressive language is being removed. The majority of the policy will now deal with new DJs (including mentoring). However, this piece of the new policy (which has yet to be voted on) might be of interest:

IV. Musical Content at Austin Swing Syndicate Events
The Fed: Main Ballroom
1. Music in the main ballroom shall be predominantly swing music.


... and that's it. That's the only musical guidance that's intended in policy for DJs. We decided that we'd leave it to the DJs to play swing music at the swing dance with the understanding that the appropriate "novelty" song at the appropriate time can really blow the roof off the room. It doesn't make sense to legislate DJs so severely that they either can't play a great set or they have to disregard "the rules" to do so.

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#58 Post by Nate Dogg » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:59 pm

First, I think the experienced DJs are too independent, too established, they won't stand for the a Board or DJ Coordinator trying to change the style of the music at the Fed. We would revolt. I have no reason to think that is what is going on.

However, "predominantly swing music" is a very subjective term. If somebody were to adhere to a more strict definition, they could try to implement a change in music using the policy. They would lose, no way that me, Matt Jones, Tina Davis, Bill Borgida, Lawrence Page, Mike Roberts, George White, Colin Wise, and myself are going to go along. We play what we want to. But, why use the language?

I think something like this would be better:
"Music in the main ballroom shall be predominantly the style of music that has been popular with swing and lindy hop dancers at Syncidate events since the inception of the Austin Swing Syndicate, keeping novelty music to a minimum."

That way, you avoid having to risk getting into a debate about what "swing music" is, you let the definition be relative to what has worked at the dances in recent years.

I also think that you should share drafts of the guidelines with the rest of the more senior DJs. That was a mistake last time, I think Lawrence would have been much more agreeable if he had at least had a chance to provide input. He might not have gotten his way, but could have had his input and feedback heard.

As for new DJ mentoring. Frankly, I think there ought to be more barriers to entry. We have eleven DJs. If a new DJ wants to be on the rotation, they need to prove themselve (or have a track record from another scene). I also think the DJs need to verify that they actually own enough music. There are too many wannabe DJs whose music has come strictly from file sharing. With eleven DJs, we really don't need more DJs. Of course, new DJs are still going to want to get started and they should be encouraged, not discouraged. Were were all new DJs once. However, we should not just hand over slots to anybody with a laptop, which is how the current policy is written.
Nathan

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keither
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#59 Post by keither » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:16 pm

Nathan - I don't think I said anything about trying to change the musical style at the Fed. We felt that the fairly neutral language above left much more leeway than the overly-specific existing language. We feel that it says exactly what it needs to and doesn't say exactly what it doesn't need to. It's worded the way it is for a reason.

We chose not to address novelty songs directly, because it's very difficult to determine what a novelty song is ahead of time. The success or failure of a song at any given is based on many factors besides the genre of music. However, stating that the music should be predominantly swing sets the tone of the room.

I don't see why anyone would need to revolt. The policy is actually far less restrictive now than it was. It seems to me that playing swing music at a swing dance is really not a lot to ask. As you can imagine, I don't believe that basing today's musical choices on what was popular 10 years ago is the right choice to make for a policy that may last another 10 years. We felt it was more appropriate to leave it to our DJs to play music that swings and let the DJ coordinator address issues of poor DJing as opposed to "incorrect genre".

We put a lot of thought into dealing with new DJs and we've given the DJ coordinator a lot more power in terms of deciding whether or not a new DJ should be added to the rotation. There are actually 17 active DJs for the Syndicate right now and at least two more people who are asking.

Thanks for the feedback re: running things by the DJs. I'll make sure we send out copies. However, the day-to-day runnings of Austin's dances are probably a bit out of scope for this topic.

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#60 Post by Mr Awesomer » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:32 pm

keither wrote:However, the day-to-day runnings of Austin's dances are probably a bit out of scope for this topic.
Indeed. Last time I checked this wasn't the Austin Swing Cartel Legislative Body Policy & Procedures Review Board Forum.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

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