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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:20 pm
by Razz
GuruReuben wrote:That same dancer may want to do other dances to other music, but would not want/expect said other music at a Lindy Hop dance/event. Rather, if they want to be a Salsa dancer for the evening, they go to a Salsa dance/event.
Well articulated. Interesting you should mention salsa, our dancers like to frequent the Latin dancing scene :wink:

Though "these people" your describing don't sound like the Lindy Hoppers I dance with... many of them are actually quite talented, I've placed in Jack & Jill competitions at exchanges, and so have other dancers. We're just a younger crowd, we like high energy music every once and a while. 8)

Perhaps it's a question of stepping outside your learned Lindy comfort zone. Not everyone enjoys a straight beat, but nothing makes me smile as much as a fun follow and Love Shack by the B-52's.

As horrifying as this may sound, try to get in touch with your inner 22 year old self... you may enjoy it :shock:

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:24 pm
by lipi
We're just a younger crowd, we like high energy music every once in a while.
oh, i'm going to enjoy watching this one.

*dons asbestos suit and sits back in comfy chair*

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 am
by Mr Awesomer
lipi wrote:
We're just a younger crowd, we like high energy music every once in a while.
oh, i'm going to enjoy watching this one.

*dons asbestos suit and sits back in comfy chair*
Heh... nah, I'll let it pass. I've mellowed out in my "old" age, haha. It is rather funny on so many levels though.

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:06 am
by Toon Town Dave
Razz wrote:We're just a younger crowd, we like high energy music every once and a while. 8)
...
As horrifying as this may sound, try to get in touch with your inner 22 year old self... you may enjoy it :shock:
Normally I'd just roll my eyes and see what comes of this spark for a flame war but I think I'll take your advice and wade in.

I'm not sure what you mean by "high energy". Perhaps the DJs in your scene need to broaden their music collection or at least start digging deeper into the music they have. I never seem to have a problem finding enough music in the swing genre with tons of energy. In fact, on occasion I've had dancers complain I play too much "fast stuff". Granted tempo and energy aren't really the same thing. Most of the music I play for Lindy Hop gravitates toward what I'd consider high energy.

From the dance side, I started learning ballroom, then discovered WCS followed by Lindy Hop and other swing dances, even a bit of tap and various forms of hip hop. I wouldn't call myself a ballroom dancer or a hoofer or a hip hop dancer, I'm sure all of my teachers would emphatically nod in agreement. I just don't dig dancing within the confines of dancing within a syllabus. I do however like the dancing these other styles.

Something I find a lot of DJs do is play music that to feels better suited to a dance style other than Lindy Hop. The most common are probably West Coast Swing (the classic style, danced to music that swings) or Foxtrot. In both cases, I find that music tends to lean more toward a shuffle rhythm than a swing rhythm making it feel a little more sedate. Nothing wrong with this on the part of the DJs although it would be nice if the general Lindy Hop crowd could dance more than just Lindy Hop.

In the case of music I like for WCS, I like stuff with rhythm and melody that loudly screams triple-step. Examples are Sam Cooke or Lou Rawls.

In the case of music for Foxtrot (or swing-walk), I find the melody's are a little more flowing, it just doesn't scream swing-out but still swings. Examples are most Sinatra or Carmen McRae.

For swinging Lindy stuff, I like a lot of early Billy Holiday's recordings with Teddy Wilson and Lester Young. There are plenty of examples of energy at all tempos. Of course there are plenty more examples I shouldn't have to mention in this forum.

Another possible explanation for the impression there is a lack of energy is a point also well discussed on swingdjs and other forums. DJs that park their selections in a narrow tempo range, particularly that slow-mid-tempo range. The audience will just stop noticing the energy. Simply mixing up tempos can help, mixing in a few slow blues or fast trad. jazz can and the needed contrast to break up the monotony.

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:43 am
by Eyeball
Razz wrote:We're just a younger crowd, we like high energy music every once and a while. 8)
Oh. That's what you meant? That Swing music has no energy? I didn't understand this sentence at all - maybe b/c it was too unfathomable a notion to me.

Wow.

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:50 am
by Haydn
GuruReuben wrote:Heh... nah, I'll let it pass. I've mellowed out in my "old" age, haha. It is rather funny on so many levels though.
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 am
by Razz
Toon Town Dave wrote:Granted tempo and energy aren't really the same thing.
Agreed... I can think of many examples of mid tempo songs that have more energy than higher tempo songs, and it's reflected in the crowd's dancing. And perhaps our DJ's do need to start digging and exploring, it would be a welcome change. That's why I joined this forum.
Eyeball wrote:Oh. That's what you meant? That Swing music has no energy? I didn't understand this sentence at all
I think your being a bit paranoid... there is an abundance of high energy swing music out there. But for me, personally (let me emphasize personal preference), few swing songs compare to the raw energy of, say Bon Jovi or Outkast... both groups have a nack for high energy at a lower tempo. High tempo swing music doesn't have that same feel in my gut. I enjoy swing music when it's slower and smooth, when it's not about high energy.

But back to the original point... what I'm trying to get at is Yes, Dancers musical tastes ARE changing, at least in my little corner of the world :D

*tentatively puts down boxer gloves*

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:26 am
by zzzzoom
Razz wrote:at least in my little corner of the world
Where is your little corner? Just curious (noticed it isn't listed . . .)

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:28 pm
by julius
Razz wrote: I think your being a bit paranoid... there is an abundance of high energy swing music out there. But for me, personally (let me emphasize personal preference), few swing songs compare to the raw energy of, say Bon Jovi or Outkast... both groups have a nack for high energy at a lower tempo. High tempo swing music doesn't have that same feel in my gut. I enjoy swing music when it's slower and smooth, when it's not about high energy.
I think a lot of dancers (particularly in LA, DC, and Seattle) like it when the tempo is blazing AND the energy of the music is high. Anthemic flag-wavers from the swing era are a challenge to dance to. Most of the people in those cities who can now dance well to that kind of music started out very young, so your comment about young people wanting more high energy music is funny to me.

How much live jazz do you see/dance to? (I'm not asking to insinuate anything.) I think dancing to live swing music makes you appreciate the old recordings a lot more and makes dancing to them much more enjoyable. When I hear one of those anthemic flag-wavers I can close my eyes and picture Lester Young, horn at an angle, looking out over a packed ballroom and playing his solo for the dancers in the jam circle that just formed. When I hear Bon Jovi, I think giant, sterile arena with a lot of people singing along drunkenly.

Like you said, preferences are preferences, but Lindy Hop was created directly as a result of the creation of swing music, so it seems evident that the dance would be best done to that music, just like a waltz would be more suitable for a waltz. Obviously Lindy Hop has evolved over the decades and there is now some forms of Lindy Hop that are better suited to later periods of music...but when I say 'Lindy Hop' I mean the style of dancing captured by teenagers in the Savoy.

My view of the dance embraces more than the moves and patterns and the music that it's danced to -- it also embodies a "flying high" type of attitude, a "look at me, I'm showing off and can you do better?" feeling that I, personally, don't feel as strongly when I'm dancing to non-swing music. As an old fart, I like to think that when I do Lindy Hop I get a bit younger.

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:47 pm
by Eyeball
Razz wrote:
Toon Town Dave wrote:Granted tempo and energy aren't really the same thing.
Agreed... I can think of many examples of mid tempo songs that have more energy than higher tempo songs, and it's reflected in the crowd's dancing. And perhaps our DJ's do need to start digging and exploring, it would be a welcome change. That's why I joined this forum.
Eyeball wrote:Oh. That's what you meant? That Swing music has no energy? I didn't understand this sentence at all
I think your being a bit paranoid... there is an abundance of high energy swing music out there. But for me, personally (let me emphasize personal preference), few swing songs compare to the raw energy of, say Bon Jovi or Outkast... both groups have a nack for high energy at a lower tempo. High tempo swing music doesn't have that same feel in my gut. I enjoy swing music when it's slower and smooth, when it's not about high energy.

But back to the original point... what I'm trying to get at is Yes, Dancers musical tastes ARE changing, at least in my little corner of the world :D

*tentatively puts down boxer gloves*
It's not a mater of parnoia. It trying to find of what you mean which has not been very clear....until now...maybe.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:44 am
by la musette
Toon Town Dave wrote:In the case of music for Foxtrot (or swing-walk), I find the melody's are a little more flowing, it just doesn't scream swing-out but still swings. Examples are most Sinatra or Carmen McRae.
Yeah, you try and do the fox trot at a lindy event, and see if you can make it a quarter of the way around the room without someone throwing their partner into you :) Lindy hoppers and fox trotters do not mix well!

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:14 am
by Razz
julius wrote: your comment about young people wanting more high energy music is funny to me.

How much live jazz do you see/dance to? (I'm not asking to insinuate anything.) I think dancing to live swing music makes you appreciate the old recordings a lot more and makes dancing to them much more enjoyable. When I hear one of those anthemic flag-wavers I can close my eyes and picture Lester Young, horn at an angle, looking out over a packed ballroom and playing his solo for the dancers in the jam circle that just formed. When I hear Bon Jovi, I think giant, sterile arena with a lot of people singing along drunkenly.
A few weeks back a 22 year old friend of mine expressed an interest in taking up swing. He wanted to see what it looked like, so I played him a few video clips. After about the third clip he looked kinda solemn and disinterested, "Is this the only music you guys dance to? Jazz?"
"No, we dance to this too." [Bon Jovi - One Wild Night]
I don't think I've ever seen him smile that big. Right away he wanted to know when the next lesson was. When I think of Bon Jovi this is what I think of, along with the Lindy Bombs and demos we do in public that get so many college kids interested. I think of the power it has over them, and the joy it brings me.

I'm only fortunate enough to get a live swing band once every few months. I've been gaining more and more of an appreciation for swing, and I figure the day will come when I'm a purist, a traditionalist, and will only Lindy Hop to swing music. But for now I'm just an unappreciative, ignorant, happy punk. :wink:

Never danced in those cities, though I certainly want to. Thinking about moving to San Francisco or Seattle, in which case it sounds like I'll have to adjust to a different swing culture and a different vocabulary.
julius wrote:when the tempo is blazing AND the energy of the music is high. Anthemic flag-wavers from the swing era are a challenge to dance to.
Can you send me the names of some of these songs?

Anyway, time to go poke around looking for new tunes...

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:50 am
by Toon Town Dave
Mandy, been there, done the foxtrot thing. It's totally do-able but requires good floorcraft. The nice thing is it can travel quickly so it's easy to travel past Lindy Hoppers mid-swingout. Even more fun is doing Peabody which travels wicked fast, I image it probably scares the snot out of newbie Lindy Hoppers on the edge of the floor.

In response to the last post from Razz:
<rant>There's an old saying in the live music world ... if you can't play it good, play it loud. There have been way too many rock bands that are basically one chord wonders that only know one rhythm. Between that and sterile electronically generated music to back up the pop diva or boy band de jour, I believe the present generation is near the end of a long trend of dumbing down music. If it's not someone hammering away like mad on tom toms with some high pitched electric guitar shrills loud enough to make your head bob without even trying, some young punks will immediately discount the music and not even give it a try.</rant>

To appreciate music, you actually have to listen to it. Be it jazz, blues, classical or even some of the contemporary R&B. I'm guessing your friend who doesn't like jazz would probably dislike Alicia Keys or Mary J. Blige as well so I wouldn't take is comments as a universal opinion of the masses.

I believe if you're not digging the music, your not going to dig the dance because the movements in the dance reflect the music. I've seen attempts of Lindy Hop to rock music and it looks more like Ceroc with swingouts. Not Lindy Hop.

Julius' description immediately brings to mind Basie's band, playing stuff like "Every Tub", "Swinging the Blues" or "Jumpin' at the Woodside". I also think of the 1993 trailer for Swing Kids featuring Benny Goodman's "Swingtime in the Rockies" or "Sing Sing Sing" (despite the fact that it was way overplayed a few years ago). I'd also think of Goodman's "King Porter Stomp", Lionel Hampton's or Charlie Barnet's "Flying Home" and nearly any version of "Rockin' in Rhythm". I've got a soft spot for "Sing You Sinners", there are a few good versions out there.

Sometimes the older scratchy lo-fi sounding recordings can be a little off-putting to newbies used to modern hi-fi recordings George Gee has a couple samples from his new CD to be released in a few days; "All the Cat's Join In" and "Down South Camp Meeting". Both great versions of some classic tunes. The Boilermakers Jazz Band have some great stuff on their last CD, I think Jonathon Stout has a new CD discussed on another thread which sounds like it should be pretty good.

There's really tons of stuff out there if you start looking but it take time and a lot of money to find and purchase it. If you rely on a few "Swing" compilations from your local music store, you're likely going to be disappointed.

By the way, you didn't answer Mary Ann's question about where you're from.

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:06 am
by Eyeball
It must be very hard to feel either subtle or strong swing when someone has been listening to loud unswinging music all one's life.

Good luck, Razz!

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:23 pm
by kitkat
Toon Town Dave wrote:it looks more like Ceroc with swingouts.
Oh my gosh, it does. :lol: I'd never thought of that.
Razz wrote:A few weeks back a 22 year old friend of mine expressed an interest in taking up swing. He wanted to see what it looked like, so I played him a few video clips. After about the third clip he looked kinda solemn and disinterested, "Is this the only music you guys dance to? Jazz?"
Ha haaaaaaaaaaaa! Quote of the day!

Oh, man, I woulda told him, "Yup...pretty much. You'll get some stuff you like better, but only a small percentage of the time. 10%, 20% maybe. Too bad it's not your cup of tea."

Hee heeeeee. That's funny.
"Jazz?"