Newbies in your scene

Tips and techniques of the trade

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djstarr
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#16 Post by djstarr » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:41 pm

We have one venue in Seattle (Century Ballroom) which has had a lot of beginners over the past two years. The drop-in lesson before the dance is east-coast and there are a lot of high-energy college kids. Which means I can play pretty much all tempos and they will try to dance to everything, it's awesome. I get lots of requests for Swing Kids soundtrack songs, plus any very well known song (i.e. Hit the Road Jack) will keep the floor full. We have had a small solid core of advanced dancers at these dances, plus the people who started two years ago are getting better so I can play my full range of music. Early in the evening I try to play a lot of vocals (even more than I usually do) and music with very clear rhythm and strong bass.

We have another venue that teaches beginning Lindy Hop classes before the dance; the instructor has two albums he teaches off of - Satch and Josh again and Maxine Sullivan tribute to Andy Razaf. Most of the tempos are 120 - 140ish. If I DJ right afterwards anything similar will keep them practicing. So I think here clear bass and slower tempo are more important than vocals.

In my own experience when I started learning Lindy Hop I'd get dizzy since I couldn't do 3-4 well and couldn't follow the lead on 5 so anything over 140 I would really challenge doing a basic with, and of course the leads do the basic over and over again when you are first beginning.

I think you might have to wait until the crowd matures a little bit to push the tempos faster *especially* if the instructors are keeping the learning material slow. I remember a similar thread a while ago and we pretty much agreed that what the instructors taught with influenced the dancers more than anything, so maybe if you talk with them about getting a wider tempo range in the next level of classes that might help.

Good luck!

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CafeSavoy
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#17 Post by CafeSavoy » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:52 pm

Moonmist wrote:Oh by no means does it reflect anything in regards to Lindyfest, nor I am in anyway 'shape' the scene. But yes, definitely frustrated that there are good songs to be danced to and people are afraid to cross the bpm threshold.

Seriously thou, it's more of a question(s) of 1, if other cities' newbies start at just as low on the BPMs and 2, if they recognize any patterns w/ newbies who like vocals over instrumentals.

And please no more mention of the Michael Jackson music. Good grief, Charlie Brown. :roll:
i'm not sure about the validity of the argument that starting slow and with vocals mean that the newbies will always dance slow. This is a topic that seems to be driven by anecdotal evidence and personal preference. but since we are using anecdotal evidence, one counter example would be the case of DC where the teachers that has produced the most students, Tom and Debra, use Sinatra with Basie "Fly Me To the Moon" in their beginning class and yet I don't think anyone will claim that DC is a slow scene. But I do agree with those who stress that students and dancers should be exposed to a variety of music in classes and at dances. Here, in addition to a variety of djed music you also get a variety of live music. And I also agree with those who think that students and dancers should be exposed to techniques for dancing faster. Another factor, which is much deprecated, but which i think contributes to the tempo ranges in the DC scene is Tom and Debra's emphasis on promoting "the jam."

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#18 Post by Moonmist » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 am

See, if it's truly a 'Jam' situation, I would be happy to comply. But then the issue goes back to the people can't run if they can't walk. Plus as Platypus mentioned earlier, the top tier of dancers moved away for school and what not, so it became more of a rare occurrance. I think it is not until people get better legs under them then we can introduce and make comfortable.

I think it's ironic that people used to think Houston dances fast, when it is further from the truth.

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djstarr
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#19 Post by djstarr » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:17 pm

Here's a newbie story for you; a couple of months ago at the Century and the floor was packed with newbies, I played "Hit the Road Jack". A guy comes running up and says "Who was that song by and where can I get it"? I had to laugh as I thought Ray Charles was pretty well known.

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#20 Post by JSAlmonte » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:19 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:i'm not sure about the validity of the argument that starting slow and with vocals mean that the newbies will always dance slow. This is a topic that seems to be driven by anecdotal evidence and personal preference. but since we are using anecdotal evidence, one counter example would be the case of DC where the teachers that has produced the most students, Tom and Debra, use Sinatra with Basie "Fly Me To the Moon" in their beginning class and yet I don't think anyone will claim that DC is a slow scene. But I do agree with those who stress that students and dancers should be exposed to a variety of music in classes and at dances. Here, in addition to a variety of djed music you also get a variety of live music. And I also agree with those who think that students and dancers should be exposed to techniques for dancing faster. Another factor, which is much deprecated, but which i think contributes to the tempo ranges in the DC scene is Tom and Debra's emphasis on promoting "the jam."
Good points. Another key factor is the not so subliminal messages during instruction. They like to push the tempos in class while re-inforcing the idea of "If it's too fast, then you're too old". Psychoboy (another instructor) used to do the same thing, and I'm pretty sure his protégée’s are following suit. So the message comes at all sides: from the music, both live & dj'd, the instruction, and the other dancers.

jerry

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#21 Post by Toon Town Dave » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:55 am

When I'm teaching if my DJ gear is set up, I often make use of the pitch control to tweak the speed of the music. First practicing with the music pitched a little below speed and then gradually pitching it up each successive play. It disguises the speed increase without changing the feel of the music.

I don't recall ever intentionally using pitch control while DJing social dancing anthough it's happened accidentally a couple times.

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#22 Post by mousethief » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:24 pm

Houston has a fundamental concern in that the cream of their scene - traditionally, the hot performers and dancers - all left about 2 years ago. En masse. That sucked up a lot of energy and spit it out across the country overnight.

As a DJ giving advice, however, I would say that Dallas is traditionally a slower scene. Most of the other DJs are blues-driven and postwar focused. But on the nights when I DJ, I take it up pretty high and pretty often.

Most newbies don't know about music; they have to be predjudiced against it by *more experienced* dancers before they poo-poo anything outside of a given genre. So, I generally start the night off faster than most local DJs. Since newbies actually take the lessons and old-timers waltz in later, I can have a room of dancers going full tilt by the time the regular dancers even hit the parking lot. Take risks; play it faster at the beginning of the night. Make the regulars feel they missed something.

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Lawrence
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#23 Post by Lawrence » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:40 pm

I've hesitated to pipe in, mostly because there's something here I find uncomfortable that I've had bad reactions to elsewhere--even though I'm not sure what it is and suspect I've expressed my disagreement poorly before and only kicked off (or worsened) a firestorm of vintage vs. groove or fast vs. slow sound-bytes.

It seems like many of the perspectives and comments here focus upon people manipulating the crowd or discriminating against a type of speed (or claiming that others discriminate against their preference) or hating something or whatever negative inflection you might want to put on it. Perhaps it's also presuming that there is a problem with people liking something different instead of understanding why they like it and discussing how those reasons can connect with the reasons why you like what you like, despite some superficial differences.

What about allowing people to like what they like while still INSPIRING them to sometimes reach outside their comfort zone instead of forcing it upon them or insulting them if they happen to like something different than you do? ("If you think its too fast, then you're fat and old and lazy.") Perhaps its just a rhetorical difference, but I suspect there is an intolerant attitude difference behind the rhetoric--and its that attitude I find bothersome and that causes me (and others) to have a knee-jerk reaction. ("If you think it's too slow, then you're a soulless, hyperactive twit who needs to eat less sugar.")

Despite my preference (and reputation) for slower tempos, I always taught slow until they mastered it, and then showed them how to dance more efficiently to faster tempos so they don't die and just give up out of frustration. I considered it irresponsible to not give them some insight to "the other side." And, despite my reputation here as the Champion of all that is Groove and Slow, some of my best students have gone on to be vintage-loving Balboa freaks.

And when I DJ, I don't force an agenda of exclusively "my kind of" music so much as react to what works in the crowd. If its fast, old vintage music, so be it. If it's swing music played by rock musicians, then that's fine, too. And, as a result, some of my biggest fans from a few years ago think I have abadoned them.

Going in with a pre-disposed idea of what people SHOULD want to dance to--and being quick to judgment about it--is a key way to be a bad DJ.
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#24 Post by Lawrence » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:46 pm

And, to elaborate, Matt's first comment about getting newbies accustomed to faster tempos through certain Jump Blues (that don't "feel" so fast) is exactly what I liked to see. Instead of buidling obstructions they need to hurdle, understand similarities beyond BPMs and create musical bridges in your sets to inspire a broader range of appreciation.

Doing so uses stuff they feel comfortable with to slowly expand their boundaries instead of dogmatically playing what they SHOULD like and forcing the epiphamy upon them. (Same thing for slowing the tempo down, which can throw just as many, or more, people off).
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fredo
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#25 Post by fredo » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:36 pm

Being that I just moved away from Houston, I understand what Moonmist is asking about. I started djing there just before I left because I was tempted to see if I could get people moving to a wider range of tempos. I like the idea of slowly bumping them up and masking faster songs, but ultimately it comes down to the music that is used during classes. I taught the intermediate class in Houston for a bit and I would try to use tunes that challenged the dancers in the class.

Beginning dancers don't know the difference and are moldable. They should be exposed to a wide range of tempos so that they can learn to appreciate more than just what the teachers of the class like to play.

Intermediate dancers will start to form their own music preferences, but also like to be challenged. I know dancing slow can be quite challenging for intermediate dancers, but in Houston the concern seems to be that few feel comfortable dancing to slightly faster tunes.

My opinion: don't give up trying to push the limits of what the comfortable tempo range is. There's only one weekly venue in Houston as it is, so when it's your turn to take the position behind the booth, show them that you're going to mix it up. There are still some excitable young kids around there that can still get interested in the faster tunes. Enthusiasm begets enthusiasm, so the experienced dancers that are still around need to inspire the newer crowd to expand their musical taste and stay on the floor all night, even if it's a "fast" song.

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#26 Post by jmatthew » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:08 am

Remember too, that newbies aren't "atuned" to the music yet. It's tough to hear the rythm, let along the swing, in some of the really vintage stuff until you know what you're listening for. You might have better luck getting newbies to dance fast to modern swing than vintage, just because the rythm is easier to hear.

Also, I wonder about how our newbies "growing up" with Balboa will change the fast side of Lindy. Not so much because it lets them be lazy, but because there is emerging a culture of "that's a Bal song" vs. "that's a fast swing out song."
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fredo
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#27 Post by fredo » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:38 am

"I wonder about how our newbies "growing up" with Balboa will change the fast side of Lindy. Not so much because it lets them be lazy, but because there is emerging a culture of "that's a Bal song" vs. "that's a fast swing out song."

That's an interesting point, and I think well on target. I remember talking a lot about things to keep in mind when trying to dance faster, but it was never tested unless the people decided to take a chance at it. I think many times they might think, "well this song is too fast for me to dance to, and I can't bal, so I guess I can't dance to this." If that happens enough times people start complaining, or the dj starts drifting away from the faster tunes because he/she doesn't like seeing an empty dance floor. I guess you need risk-takers in a scene to make the jump to advanced lindy hop seem more attainable.

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