Trading collections

Tips and techniques of the trade

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mousethief
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#16 Post by mousethief » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:17 pm

Gotta agree with Reuben here. I wouldn't let a DJ who I knew to be a thief DJ at my events, no matter how popular.

Kalman
"The cause of reform is hurt, not helped, when an activist makes an idiotic suggestion."

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GemZombie
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#17 Post by GemZombie » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:10 pm

I hope I never implied that just because an artist is dead, it's ok to steal from a record company who put money into producing an album. Not cool.

Also, using someone elses collection to DJ from, unless the collection was loaned to that person for that reason (and the music won't be copied), is not cool either.

Swapping the occasional song or two with friends, however, promotes knowledge, and leads to more purchasing... at least the way I've done it.

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#18 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:23 pm

You didn't implied that but a few others did.
Reuben Brown
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#19 Post by mousethief » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:34 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:Sorry for the long post.

While this is not a new situation, I don’t know if this has ever been a thread topic, only something that has been mentioned in passing in other threads. Feel free to post relevant threads if you want, there are a lot of threads, I may have missed something.

With all the file sharing going around, I am starting to come across more DJs who hardly own any music acquired through legitimate means. They have bought very few CDs from stores, legitimate download sites (eMusic, iTunes, etc…). In almost all cases, these are young, college age kids who traded MP3 collections with their fellow dancers, who traded with other friends, etc... Often, they don't know much about what they are have, just that it sounds good.

I am kind of torn, I can see how helpful MP3s and file sharing has been for small scenes, letting music reached places where it was lacking. On the other hand, as somebody who spends a small fortune on CDs, I am thinking that these DJs are a bit out of line, they have not made the sacrifices that the rest of us have made. It is not like they supplemented a decent collection with a few CDRs or MP3s. Virtually their entire collection is not legit.

For the record:
I am not advocating that we not DJ from CD-Rs or MP3s. DJing from original CDs is too big of a theft risk.

I am very much against DJs who think they “own” songs, the biggest compliment you can give a DJ is to start playing a song you heard in their set.

A few questions I am struggling with, feel free to reply to one of them if you want?

Should a DJ demonstrate that they actually own music before they promote themselves as DJs in a competitive scene? If so, what is an acceptable percentage of legitimately owned music (100%, 80%)?

I know a DJ who lost his entire legitimate collection to theft, he now DJs mostly from copies his friends gave him? Should he be judged the same way? Should he just retire while he is rebuilding?

Is an effective DJ who plays sets from a large collection, consisting almost entirely of illegitimate tunes better than a less effective DJ who plays sets from his or her small, weak, legitimate collection?

Should I just sit back and not worry about this and just realize that this is how things are, this sort of thing is inevitable, etc... Or, should I share my feelings with some of the DJs with questionable collections?

As a local event organizer, should I take steps to only use DJs who own the music they play?

Are all pirates equal?

I am not really trying to preach any particular viewpoint, I am just real curious as to what the DJs on this Board feel about these issues.

Nathan
Nate Dogg wrote:I think DJs who know their collection and audience are going to be popular DJs, whether or not they acquired a lot of their music via hard drive trades.

DJs who already had extensive collections to begin with are probably going to slowly review and filter anything they get through a mass trade.
I don't think you can say that trading leads to bad DJing in every instance. However, mass trading does lower the barrier to entry for being a DJ and it does allow some bad DJs to get into the mix. People who would never have the time, money, knowlege to start DJing suddenly have the music.

I know some "bad" DJs who only play the CDs they bought themselves. I also know some "good" DJs who have not spent hardly any money on CDs, yet are as popular as DJs who have bought thousands of CDs. Most dancers don't care.

In the end, I try not to get very frustrated about it. The world is what it is today.
Change of heart, Nathan?

Kalman
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#20 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:12 pm

If you go deeper in that thread, you get a lot more of my thoughts.

I don't think I have changed my opinions on the facts. Some DJs are more legit than others. I am not the guy who is going to argue why file sharing is not illegal, not a violation, etc...

However, my attitude has changed. I don't get my blood pressure up about this topic anymore. I have accepted that the average dancer does not care where their DJs music has come from. I understand that the room in my house with 3,300 store bought CDs has no bearing on much of anything other than that I have a compulsive CD buying habit and that I need help.

The DJ world changed for DJs of all stripes back in the late 90s and technology is continuing to drive those changes (iPods, cheap 250 gig hard drives, download sites, etc..). You just can't expect the market to find the same value in DJs that they once did. You won't find many Exchanges, workshops, weekly venue organizers really caring about the ethical issues that some posters have brought up. Please note, I am not using the "lack of caring" as some argument against the ethical issues. I am just trying to explain why I don't care anymore about how legit everybody else is. I would rather worry about things I can control.
Last edited by Nate Dogg on Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#21 Post by mousethief » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:33 pm

So, it is a change of heart then. I'm not going to beat you up about it. Just wanted to make sure.

Kalman
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#22 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:45 pm

mousethief wrote:So, it is a change of heart then. I'm not going to beat you up about it. Just wanted to make sure.

Kalman
My thinking has evolved over time, you can call it a change of heart. But, it is not like I though trading was wrong before and now it is ok, or vice versa. I used to be mad and now I am at peace with the situation.

Here is the old thread, for those who are interested in reliving it.

http://www.swingdjs.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... c&start=30

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#23 Post by mousethief » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:46 pm

I take it all back. I won't call it a change of heart after all. I'll call it cashing in principle for peace of mind.

Kalman
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#24 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:16 pm

So basically what you're saying is that you wouldn't say a word if you were at a Record Shop and watched some kid stuff some CDs into his jacket.

Only in this case, we're talking about some kid stuffing a few hundred CDs into his portable hard drive. There really is no difference between these two.

Quite frankly this should piss more people off. The problem is it doesn't. Unless someone is personally being hurt by something they don't give a shit about the illegal activities of another. Ironically, it's this same practice and attitude that will end up making them a target in the long run.
Reuben Brown
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#25 Post by Roy » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:34 pm

I'm just curious if anyone realizes that if you are a major DJ in a popular dance club music style you get thousands of songs for free from the record companies. I knew a guy who would get around 15 records a day mailed to him for no charge from the record companies. Why? because they wanted their songs played at dance clubs, because then other people would hear it and want to buy it.

I've also recieved some CD's just given to me from artists because they wanted me to play there music. I know some other bigger name dj's on this board have had this happen many times.

I don't have any problem with someone who has already bought hundreds of CD's and continues to buy CD's at the same rate wanting to swap some music. Who cares, they spend thousands of dollars on music and they are putting just as much money into it as before. But if the swapping is done and you stop buying CD's then that's another story. Or you never bought any CD's in the first place.

I'm not a fan of record companies, at least the major ones, they have a habit of ripping off the artists.

Another point is if some people are so up in arms against record companies not get the money for ripped songs then you should also be up in arms agains people buying only used CD's because the record companies do not get the money from that either.

For me personally I try to buy CD's directly from the artists when I see them live. In that way I support the artists directly. Also many times they are indpendent labels that are not avaliable elsewhere. For me personally besides buying directly from the artists I go record shopping for new and used CD's around once a month. I would say that I average around 3-5 CD's a month. I usually hear something on the radio that I really like and put it on a must have list. I try to get stuff other DJ's do not have so- swapping music when be counter productive to this goal.

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#26 Post by GemZombie » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:39 pm

I get free CD's all the time because I DJ at a radio station. Unfortunately they aren't usually all that good, and rarely are they classic Big Band/Swing.

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#27 Post by GemZombie » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:42 pm

GuruReuben wrote:So basically what you're saying is that you wouldn't say a word if you were at a Record Shop and watched some kid stuff some CDs into his jacket.

Only in this case, we're talking about some kid stuffing a few hundred CDs into his portable hard drive. There really is no difference between these two.

Quite frankly this should piss more people off. The problem is it doesn't. Unless someone is personally being hurt by something they don't give a shit about the illegal activities of another. Ironically, it's this same practice and attitude that will end up making them a target in the long run.
I undestand this better than you might think. I'm a software developer... Music and Software have a lot in common on this. I'm a believe of the try before you buy approach to both music and software. It's in this compacity only do I usually "exchange" music. The problem is that most people aren't as honest as I am, and will not buy the music. I wouldn't hesitate to give you, Reuben, a few songs because I know that if you liked the songs you'd go buy the CD, or if you didn't you'd toss them and never DJ from them.

It does piss me off when someone DJ's from an entire collection of stolen music.

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#28 Post by trev » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 pm

GuruReuben wrote:You didn't implied that but a few others did.
Disclaimer: In my earlier post I was attempting to be ironic and did not intend to imply advocacy of piracy. :roll:

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#29 Post by yedancer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:44 pm

Roy wrote:I knew a guy who would get around 15 records a day mailed to him for no charge from the record companies. Why? because they wanted their songs played at dance clubs, because then other people would hear it and want to buy it.
I don't think record labels do that for the relatively obscure music that we DJ. Pop, rock, hip-hop and even modern jazz all have huge audiences that pull in large ammounts of money? Of course the record labels can afford to give free CDs out to the club DJs. But there isn't big money to be made off of the lindy hop and swing dance crowd, so it's really a different issue. There are so few of us that every little bit of money that we put into our industry helps, because as Reuben said, if they don't make some money off of it, why would they possibly spend money to restore and remaster old recordings, or record modern small-name bands for that matter?
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

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#30 Post by Bob the Builder » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:26 pm

Just a general comment about Record companies
Many of us may not have much respect for them in regard to how they operate or how they treat their artiest. However coping music illegally is not just depriving the record companies, it is also depriving the artist and composers of royalties and it is also damaging to the recording business.

The thing is, we (as music lovers in the scene) should try to encourage everyone to have as much legal material as possible. Think of how many more CD’s, current small time artists would be able to record if every single one of their CD’s floating around was an original.

Brian
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