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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:24 pm
by Nate Dogg
Kyle wrote:gatorgal wrote:No offense, but if you spent any amount of time organizing and/or promoting you wouldn't say anything as blatantly naive as this. You can talk to as many "wanna be's" as you want, but until you have walked the figurative mile in any organizer's shoes, you cannot hope to understand the work and the potential for "failure" (a word I don't like by the way) involved in setting up a successful event.
I have walked the figurative mile, more than once. I have organized events, big and small. Nothing ENORMOUS (ULHS etc..) but, every event that I have put on has been a social success and a financial success.
Next time, please ask before you stake claims like that.
Events are not a difficult thing to run. Yes, there are a lot of things to do, organize, and coordinate. but by no means are they difficult. Most of it takes common sense, something that is far too uncommon in swing promoters.
Don't jump on Tina, she was replying to your post where you backed up your point with "promoters you spoke to." The more specific you are in backing up what you say, the more people will be likely to agree with you. Keith speaks from organizing Lindy Gras, Tina has worked on SoFlex.
I still don't know what events you organized.
Nathan
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:32 pm
by Shorty Dave
Nate Dogg wrote:As an event organizer, it can be hard to justify to your fellow Exchange Coordinators paying too much DJ airfare. When you add in bands, local DJs, there are only so many available hours for an out of town marque DJ.
It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using,
not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."
It's less a question of "out of town vs local DJs", but more a question of what do you as an organizer place the value of DJs and how much of the budget are you going to allocate to them?
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:34 pm
by gatorgal
Kyle wrote:
Events are not a difficult thing to run. Yes, there are a lot of things to do, organize, and coordinate. but by no means are they difficult. Most of it takes common sense, something that is far too uncommon in swing promoters.
That is the kind of statement I find arrogant and I think that's an extremely erroneous position to have.
Maybe I'm misreading your point, but you seem to be saying that if an organization doesn't cover the expenses for all of their DJs and doesn't give a DJ money for his or her spinning time, then there's obviously a lack of brain cells involved when it comes to the planning the organization of an event. Which is 1) insulting to the many folks who spend their time organizing swing events and 2) being completely oblivious to the fact that different scenes have different goals and capabilities when putting on an event.
I don't expect the same compensation as some like Jesse, Rayned or Reuben may command or request... simply because I don't have their experience or knowledge. Just as I don't expect a scene like So Fla, KC or Knoxville to be on par with LA or Austin or New Orleans.
So if your idea of compensation is an equal of exchange of goods and services (I think Kristina mentioned lessons for spinning) or "taking care" of a DJ during an event (i.e. comping), then it looks like we agree... because I believe that's a perfectly acceptable form to payment for a lot of DJs. But if your idea that compensation is money/travel expenses only, then we disagree... especially since I don't believe than organization has failed to put on a successful event if they can't compensate a DJ in that fashion.
Tina
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:34 pm
by Mr Awesomer
Shorty Dave wrote:
It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using, not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."
Don't forget the frat paddles!
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:36 pm
by Nate Dogg
GuruReuben wrote:Shorty Dave wrote:
It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using, not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."
Don't forget the frat paddles!
Yeah, promotional items.
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:37 pm
by BigCash
gatorgal wrote:..."Just as I don't expect a scene like So Fla, KC or Knoxville to be on par with LA or Austin or New Orleans.
Check it out... We're all grown up!!!
If you only knew, lol.
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:39 pm
by gatorgal
BigCash wrote:gatorgal wrote:..."Just as I don't expect a scene like So Fla, KC or Knoxville to be on par with LA or Austin or New Orleans.
Check it out... We all grown up!!!
If you only knew, lol.
Tell me the next time we see each other.
Tina
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:40 pm
by gatorgal
GuruReuben wrote:Shorty Dave wrote:
It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using, not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."
Don't forget the frat paddles!
I think you're just bitter that you didn't get a picture with the paddle.
Tina
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:44 pm
by Mr Awesomer
Oh, I have plenty of pictures with the paddle.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:47 pm
by Swifty
GuruReuben wrote:I DJ for fun, therefore the determination of my salary usually comes down to one question: Would I have gone to the event even if I wasn't asked to DJ?
I like this approach. Of course, that leaves me usually DJing for free. Maybe I should question my self worth.
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:49 pm
by Nate Dogg
Shorty Dave wrote:Nate Dogg wrote:As an event organizer, it can be hard to justify to your fellow Exchange Coordinators paying too much DJ airfare. When you add in bands, local DJs, there are only so many available hours for an out of town marque DJ.
It seems like you're saying "Either we pay $250 extra to fly in a DJ or we use local DJs and save $250". My response to that would be, "If you're not going to fly a DJ in for $250, well then that's $250 extra dollars in cash you have to pay the local DJs you are using,
not $250 extra dollars for a limo rental / poker table / free food / promotional t-shirts / "prom photos" / whatever else one may see at an exchange."
It's less a question of "out of town vs local DJs", but more a question of what do you as an organizer place the value of DJs and how much of the budget are you going to allocate to them?
Dave, in our conversations offline, I never talked about saving money. The idea is to spent it all and break even.
The local DJs are going to be part of the Exchange anyway, whether they are paid or not. They have always been paid or comped.
In truth, the $250 not allocated to DJ flights would probably go towards the bands. That would be the immediate trade off. Since the music and DJs tend to be budgeted together. Money goes to the bands, what is left over goes to DJs.
As for the other stuff, they each have their own ROI so to speak. Our biggest expense at all the Exchanges I have organized have been venues and music. Followed by "event" t-shirts (not promo), which in theory are supposed to be recouped (but that does not always happen).
I don't want to get into the whole Alpha Lambda Chi thing again. But, if you cut some promo expense (let's say promo tshirts), that money would likely go towards another promotional expense. Unless the whole promo budget was cut in favor of another section.
But, I am getting kind of specific, not every Exchange budget is set up that way.
My point in bringing up all other expenses was to show that there are a lot of expenses out there. To look at every expense and say "That is money out of a DJ's pocket" is too simplistic.
The people who have attended the Exchanges with free after food, free airport transportation, free movie screenings, free casino have greatly appreciated those extras. So, we keep bringing them back, while still living up to everybody's expectations on the core elements (venues, music, housing, etc..).
Nathan
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:53 pm
by Kyle
gatorgal wrote:Maybe I'm misreading your point
Yes you are.
I have two points in this thread total. One: DJ's should get some sort of compensation. and two, It is not as difficult as people portray it to be to run an event.
I did not combine those two topics into one, as you did. I am not saying that if people do not pay DJ's, they have no brain cells. I am saying that promoters make stupid mistakes that can be avoided with common sense.
How about these errors:
Fly in a teacher from another country, and house them with someone who is over 100 miles away.
Start promotion for a national-scale event less than two weeks before the event takes place.
Charge full price to a dancer that shows up to an event where the band has 4 songs left in their final set, and then there is only 30 minutes of social dancing.
Forget to put what day of the week for your "Exciting New Lindy Hop Venue" is.
Have a DJ battle between two classic swing DJ's at a Groove event.
Not have water available.
The list goes on and on. These are examples of what I chalk up to common sense. Are they venue breaking, some are, some arent. But they add up, and are things that can be easily avoided with some COMMON SENSE.
In terms of the DJ'ing, I am simply saying that DJ's should be compensated. That is all. Comp into the event, cash, some drinks, dinner, goodie bag....whatever, something to say, thank you!
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:57 pm
by BigCash
I kind of look at it like this:
Here is what I want... (X # of bands, Venue "A", Venue "B", etc...) See if I can get what I want and how much it will cost me, and then set the price. If I don't think I can get what I need, we start over.
I think if you go in saying, I have $15K to spend... You're kinda of setting yourself up to nickle and dime the people at the bottom of the food chain.
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:06 pm
by Nate Dogg
BigCash wrote:I kind of look at it like this:
Here is what I want... (X # of bands, Venue "A", Venue "B", etc...) See if I can get what I want and how much it will cost me, and then set the price. If I don't think I can get what I need, we start over.
I think if you go in saying, I have $15K to spend... You're kinda of setting yourself up to nickle and dime the people at the bottom of the food chain.
Yeah, we add up the projected expenses for the event, project revenue and try to balance it out. We never say that we are going to spend x. We say that the end result will be a great event that breaks even.
Certain things are variable and with a certain degree of uncertainty. So, misjudgments can and do happen.
There is seed money. But, in theory that is recovered once registration money starts to come in.
Nathan
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:38 pm
by Shorty Dave
Nate Dogg wrote:My point in bringing up all other expenses was to show that there are a lot of expenses out there. To look at every expense and say "That is money out of a DJ's pocket" is too simplistic.
I completely agree. Similarly, a promoter shouldn't budget for all these other expenses and not budget
anything for DJs. So the question once again comes down to what's the middle ground? How much value do you place on a DJ in comparison to the other aspects of what makes an event (price for the event of course being one of those aspects)?
Let's say an exchange is going to cost around $55 for the weekend before you really factor in the DJ expense, and attendance is 300. Do you keep the price of admission the same and pay the DJs a small hourly fee and don't even comp them for the weekend, or do you raise admission $5 per head and fly in 5 DJs, pay for their cabs to and from the airport, buy them dinner one night, and comp them for the whole weekend? Surely a $55 exchange vs a $60 exchange isn't going to make a big difference in terms of attendance (especially if it's sold out to begin with).