Swing music in large rooms with crappy sound systems

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jmatthew
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Swing music in large rooms with crappy sound systems

#1 Post by jmatthew » Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:52 am

So our local ballroom dance club runs huge dances in our college's Student Union.

Waltz, West Coast, Neo-Swing, Hustle...basically everything but classic swing music sounds great. Swing sounds absolutely horrible, you can barely hear the rythm, it sounds like the entire bass line is completely vanished...anyone know why this happens and any steps we can take to correct it? I've been staging a pretty revival of classic swing music, but the fact that you can barely hear it in the Student Union kills our chance of dancing to it at our big dances.
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LindyChef
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#2 Post by LindyChef » Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:59 am

Could be a lot of things - shape and dimensions of the room, acoustical treatments, sound system, etc.

Without seeing the sound system and playing with it, the only thing I can really ask about is the room itself. What are the measurements of the room? What is its shape? Doe you have any acoustical treatments in place? Does the bass line change depending on where you are in the room?

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Bob the Builder
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#3 Post by Bob the Builder » Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:28 pm

I find the less quality the recordings, i.e. many of our 20’s, 30’,s and 40’,s swing recordings, the better the sound system you need. With out a good system you will lose so much.
Have you tried playing at higher quality 60’s to 90’s classic “style” swing? Hopefully it will sound a lot better. It many be a case that if you want to spin classic songs you are just going to have to use modern recordings. Unfortunate, but there is no point in spinning something that no one can appreciate due to bad sound quality.

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#4 Post by jmatthew » Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:34 pm

It's about 300x150 foot ballroom. Most music sounds fine there, including modern swing, but Basie, Cab Calloway, Ella, etc all sound horrible.

Sounds like I may just have to put up with more Casey, Swing Session, etc until we invest in new gear.
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Lawrence
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#5 Post by Lawrence » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:35 pm

Bob the Builder wrote:I find the less quality the recordings, i.e. many of our 20’s, 30’,s and 40’,s swing recordings, the better the sound system you need. With out a good system you will lose so much.
Actually, I've found the opposite to be true, which we have discussed before. I noticed that, for instance, the songs in the movie "Sun Valley Jump" actually sound better on my t.v. speakers than from the CD recording on my stereo or DJ system. Same thing with the Fender Passport portable ssytems that some people have endorsed: they make modern music sound like crap, but there is not the same diminishment of sound quality with older recordings--the older recordings even arguably sound better than they do on a better system.

I suspect it might be that better sound systems reveal the technical inadequacies of the old recordings because their dynamic ranges are broader than the recordings: the system plays parts of the sound spectrum that, on old recordings, only contain high-end hiss or deep-end muffles. Worse systems have dynamic ranges similar to the old recordings, so they, ironically, sound better. As such, for older music, it often is ironically better to lose the advantage of better sound systems.
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#6 Post by Bob the Builder » Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:55 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one then Lawrence, :D
In my use of Sound systems, it's the lack of output that has been the main reason they are not producing reasonable sound quality. This also has to do with room size & shape and quantity of people in the room.
You can just about get away with pumping a system up to its max power with modern recordings, but do it with old recordings and you will hear every hiss, crackle and distortion in it.
Your TV speakers will generally be at a moderate volume and your lounge is a small room. Try putting it into a bigger room and put the volume on max and hear how bad it sounds.

jmatthew
Have your tried to see what recordings from bands like "Mora's Modern Rhythmists" sound like?
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Lawrence
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#7 Post by Lawrence » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:11 pm

I don't think that contrasts with what I wrote, at all. (This point is entirely seperate from prefering vintage or groove music; it has to do with maximizing sound quality for vintage recordings.)

Quality in a sound system does not come from volume; it comes from clarity at high volumes. And with clarity at high volumes--as you noted--low-fi sounds even worse. Volume, alone, is cheap to get in a sound system. Clarity is more expensive. Thus, the added clarity of better systems--not the volume--reveals the technical shortcomings of low-fi recordings.

I think that is what is behind Matthew's original question of why modern Hustle music sounds good but Swing music sounds lost. I presume he plays mostly vinatage stuff; otherwise there would not be the sound quality difference. I have set the equalizer so as to cut off the high and low end--just the opposite of my original inclination--so as to come closer to the limited frequency range of vintage systems.

Yes, Dean Mora sounds great on a good system.
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Bob the Builder
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#8 Post by Bob the Builder » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:56 pm

And yes, Dean Mora sounds not to bad on a crap system. :D
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#9 Post by scowl » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:43 pm

If the bass is disappearing, you might want to make sure that the speakers are connected in phase if that's possible with the sound system. If the polarity of one or more of the speakers is backwards, it will suck up the bass the other speakers are sending out. This makes monophonic sources and old recordings sound even worse because theyt don't have much bass to spare to begin with.

You can check this by playing something in mono, standing between two speakers and verifying that the sound seems to be coming from one spot between the speakers. If they speakers are out of phase a mono source won't quite sound like it's coming from between the speakers, more like from an indefinite space in between the speakers. You can also try turning off the amp, switching the polarity of one of the speakers and see if you suddenly hear more bass when you turn it back on.

This can only happen with systems that will let you hook up speakers with the wrong polarity. It's a common problem with old systems that ran speakers through zip cord wire. I'm sure newer systems use plugs that will prevent you from connecting the speakers wrong since it's really easy to do. Many times I've seen people hook up their speakers wrong and not realize it -- they just crank up the volume and bump up the bass EQ. Once the speaker's polarity is fixed, they discover why they had to do that!

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#10 Post by JitterbugJunkie » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:40 am

Sometimes half the fun of working a new room is figuring out how to set up for it. Big rooms can be a big challenge sometimes...

A wedding DJ I met prefers those coffin shape speakers (He has some great EVs) placed on the floor. Something about being on the floor he says. I have some similar Peaveys and I've tried them on the floor. The sound is great but when the dance floor fills up the sound doesn't carry to the far corners. I like them elevated a bit when the room is full.

Another DJ I know says the trick is to be ***just*** above the heads of the dancers so the sound carries well and sounds good. I think there is some good logic in that.

Big rooms can be a trick, no doubt. I have found that in a big room with a high ceiling I get better results if I point the sound (speakers) down a little, just enough to keep the sound from bouncing around up above. Try backing your speakers up to a wall too. Lots of times there is a place right on the edge of the stage where you can do this. You might be amazed at the bass that shows up when you do that.

One of my favorites in a big room is to put speakers in all four corners of the dance floor, or two on stage and two in the corners of the opposite wall. I use both of my PAs to do it so I can have individual control over the two sets of speakers. Great sound throughout the room can be had without running up the decibels. Also, because you can run a lower volume, you take much of the room's acoustical factors out of the equation.

Pro sound guys talk about "ringing-out a room". Essentially it involves playing with your EQ to get the sound just right. At first it seems impossible but after a while you get better at it. Some people get so they not only hear the problem but know the exact range that is the culprit ("man, my 2k sounds out of control..."). If you have access to a good EQ setup and can show up an hour or two early you can often work some real magic. The EQ I picked up used has 30 channels on each side (stereo). It does good things but the tricks I mentioned above have proven much more valuable (I almost never use it anymore). Older systems will likely require more tweaking. Horn design and crossover points have changed quite a bit in just the last few years.

Depending on just how crappie the sound system is you may be able to come up with some tweaks that really help.

Hope this helps!

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