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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:52 pm
by GemZombie
fredo wrote:
GemZombie wrote:I'm still adamant about Digital DJs using the proper software/equipment though, and unfortunately there are far too many DJs that don't. I'll alienate half of you by telling you all once again how bad iTunes sucks. Using iTunes/winamp/Media player is like riding around in a Datsun Pick-up truck held together with Duct Tape. Sure it works and will get you there, but it's ugly, needs constant maintenance, and slapped together things tend to fall apart under heavy usage.

I don't see what the big deal is with using itunes/winamp/media player. Sure, its working between separate software that wasn't intended to be used together, but I don't see that as a huge problem. What does "ugly" have to do with anything anyway? Maintenance? What maintenance?

I've heard of music snobs, but DJ software snobs? :roll:
Yup, I'm a snob.

I don't see why people choose to use hacky software when there are much more elegant solutions, that are technically superior in features and interface (ease of use).

To each their own of course, but I really do dislike iTunes. I think it's horrible software, the only good thing that people always cite is it's organization system. I'm not convinced.

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:57 pm
by GemZombie
patrik wrote:
fredo wrote:I've heard of music snobs, but DJ software snobs? :roll:
DJ software snobs, that is the term.
GemZombie
I would like to know why using iTunes is bad? Please tell me. I bet nobody can hear the difference on a crowded dancefloor.
Blah, here you guys are making it all serious again.

Look everyone uses iTunes with one huge giant playlist and do searches... I never see people use it's organizational features even though they say they do. To me it's just a music player, not a DJ setup. Most of the people who use it don't have a setup to cue stuff up, and they are too lazy to do so. I'm sure many of you have hacked your system together to do that, and so I am not necessarily speaking to all of you, but almost *eveyone* I see use iTunes uses it as a playlist only, and that annoys me terribly. It's help create a herd of psuedo-psuedo-DJ's (I consider most of us psuedo-DJ's anyway) that don't even try.

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:59 pm
by GemZombie
kitkat wrote:
GemZombie wrote:There's no swing DJ so good at DJing by CD that they can't be done without.
Taken nationally or even regionally, what you said is true.
Ya, and I admitted as such when I said we have local DJ's who still use DJ's that I still schedule to DJ, and still bring in my CD rig for them.

Most of the discussion on these boards comes from an idealistic point of view... in practice it's not always so cut and dry.

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:06 pm
by GemZombie
GuruReuben wrote:
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:IMO, the minimum set of capabilities for DJ software is:

1) Cross fade between songs.
2) Alter the pitch/tempo of the song in real time.
3) "Cue" a song to skip a long intro.
4) "Preview" a song while another is playing.
5) Search able playlist (preferably by ID3 tag fields)
1) While I understand you need for such a function, it’s completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ... no matter what their taste of "Lindy Hop" may be.
2) Again, completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ.
3) Can be done with itunes or winamp.
4) Can be done with winamp... and I've heard people have a method of doing this with itunes.
5) Can be done with itunes or winamp.
1. Crossfading isn't always about fading directly from one song to the next, it's about controlling time between the two songs if you are using a playlist setup. I use the feature in BPM Studio that way, and I can't imagine not having the feature.
2. Agreed. I hate altering pitch/tempo for swing music.
3. Cueing in winamp... how does one do that without having a separate sound card set up, which I don't believe most "swing djs" bother to do.
4. For the average person's technical ability, they can't figure out how to do it. So there are a lot of swing DJ's who don't bother. The ease of use, proliferation and freeness of iTunes/Winamp has made almost everyone use it. This is not necessarily a good thing.
5. I'm ambivolent, I do most of my searches via explorer... and I never search by BPM, i use my ear and knowledge for that one.

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:28 pm
by fredo
gemzombie- It just sounds to me like you have a fairly grim view of "most swing DJs", perhaps from some horrible DJ childhood trauma.

I won't argue that professional DJ software is ultimately superior as a DJ tool, because it's designed for DJ purposes rather than casual listening. I think others have pointed out, however, that most of the bells and whistles aren't really necessary for swing DJs. I can't speak for "most swing DJs", but for me its a matter of turnover time and effort from one set up that I'm comfortable with to a new one. I'm sure I'll do it eventually, but if you DJ two or three times a month it takes some major motivation to switch out your whole set up.

Your argument seems to be less about whether swings djs CAN do a good job with itunes/winamp/media player set ups, and more about what, in your estimation, the "average" swing DJ is actually doing. Either you're basing this on personal interactions with less than average DJs, or you just perceive most swing DJs as brainless oafs.

--"Crossfading isn't always about fading directly from one song to the next, it's about controlling time between the two songs if you are using a playlist setup. I use the feature in BPM Studio that way, and I can't imagine not having the feature."

Most swing DJs can figure out how to press stop on a track, wait a few seconds, then press play on the next track.

-- "Cueing in winamp... how does one do that without having a separate sound card set up, which I don't believe most "swing djs" bother to do."

That's funny, most swing DJs that I know that DJ on a regular basis have an external sound card. I see those turtle cards everywhere these days.

--re: previewing: "For the average person's technical ability, they can't figure out how to do it. So there are a lot of swing DJ's who don't bother."

Most swing DJs get an external sound card so that they can preview while tracks are playing. see previous response.

--re: searchable playlists: "I'm ambivolent, I do most of my searches via explorer... and I never search by BPM, i use my ear and knowledge for that one."

Most swing DJs must not be as knowledgeable as you. I usually search by coolness-factor, I use my jank-ometer for that one.

*this discussion is amusing to me. I dont really care that much, I just like a good argument about nothing. It's amusing to me because when listening to other DJs, I'm usually listening to what music choices they make, not to the quality of their software navigation-- but to each their own.

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:47 pm
by Mr Awesomer
fredo wrote:It's amusing to me because when listening to other DJs, I'm usually listening to what music choices they make, not to the quality of their software navigation-- but to each their own.
Exactly. Aside from accidentally pushing stop in the middle of a song or accidentally playing your next song to soon, there isn't much to screw up.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:47 am
by SoundInMotionDJ
GuruReuben wrote:
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:IMO, the minimum set of capabilities for DJ software is:

1) Cross fade between songs.
2) Alter the pitch/tempo of the song in real time.
3) "Cue" a song to skip a long intro.
4) "Preview" a song while another is playing.
5) Search able playlist (preferably by ID3 tag fields)
1) While I understand you need for such a function, it’s completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ... no matter what their taste of "Lindy Hop" may be.
2) Again, completely unnecessary for a Lindy Hop DJ.
3) Can be done with itunes or winamp.
4) Can be done with winamp... and I've heard people have a method of doing this with itunes.
5) Can be done with itunes or winamp.
Well then, it's a good thing that I was making a list of the features that should be included in an "professional" DJ software - and not making a list of the "minimum" that someone can "get by" with while playing for an exclusive Lindy hop audience....isn't it... :wink:

The capability to cross fade implies that two songs can be played through a main channel output at the same time. (Perhaps I should have phrased it that way). The CD equivalent of this is "Two CD players connected to a mixer." Are there any CD based DJs who prefer a single CD player to dual CD players? Maybe you can "get by" with a single CD player...but is that the setup you would prefer?

"Crossfading" between songs is not about beat mixing. It can be about fading a song that is too long (be that at 4 min, or 8 min, or 24min) and smoothly transitioning to the next song...even if there is a pause between them.

I happen to have a multi channel sound card - so I have two connections to the mixer for my computer - one for each channel. I can use the mixer to fade the first song, then just click 'play' on the second song. I can also mute a channel and cue a song. Could I play a set without ever doing those things? Yes I can. But knowing that I have that capability allows me to pick songs that have not been edited to a skip long intros.

Again, this is not about what someone can "make due," or "get by" with - this is about what capabilities should be present in a professional tool.

There are probably a lot of buttons and sliders that any individual DJ might not want to use on any particular setup - that does not mean that they are "unnecessary" or "undesirable." (This is true both on computer DJ setups, and CD or turntable based setups.)

Perhaps this is a lack of experience. If I had not DJd for years with CDs, on systems with 2 decks and sometimes 4 decks, I might not understand how to take advantage of that kind of setup to make my life easier.

If this thread was about the "minimum" necessary to just "get by" with as a Lindy Hop DJ - then from the sound of things, a single CD player with no headphones would seem to be the answer. That is the equivalent to the software setup that people seem to be pushing for...but with a slightly longer pause between songs.

I understand people who think they can program without headphones - they can just remember everything. That's not the point. The point is this: Would having headphones make your DJ time easier? If so, then perhaps headphones are "desirable" even if they are not "necessary."

--Stan Graves

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:31 am
by Mr Awesomer
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:Well then, it's a good thing that I was making a list of the features that should be included in an "professional" DJ software - and not making a list of the "minimum" that someone can "get by" with while playing for an exclusive Lindy hop audience....isn't it... :wink:
If that was the case, then my bad.
Regardless, I do a very professional job using iTunes alone.
It's when I open my mouth that things become unprofessional, haha.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:15 am
by SoundInMotionDJ
GuruReuben wrote:Regardless, I do a very professional job using iTunes alone.
Is there any way that you could do a better job - even just 1% better - if you had better tools?

--Stan Graves

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:40 am
by Mr Awesomer
SoundInMotionDJ wrote:
GuruReuben wrote:Regardless, I do a very professional job using iTunes alone.
Is there any way that you could do a better job - even just 1% better - if you had better tools?

--Stan Graves
DJing at Lindy dances and events... no. The better tools are over kill and I wouldn't get any use out of them. Under other circumstances, where I would actually need the extra features a more professional DJ software solution provides, yes, I would absolutely do a better job.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:14 am
by CafeSavoy
How would you deal with events where competitors provide their music?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:23 am
by Mr Awesomer
CafeSavoy wrote:How would you deal with events where competitors provide their music?
Your laptop doesn't have an optical drive?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:35 am
by CafeSavoy
GuruReuben wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:How would you deal with events where competitors provide their music?
Your laptop doesn't have an optical drive?
You can play one cd while cueing another on your laptop?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:44 am
by Mr Awesomer
CafeSavoy wrote:
GuruReuben wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:How would you deal with events where competitors provide their music?
Your laptop doesn't have an optical drive?
You can play one cd while cueing another on your laptop?
Why do you need to cue multiple CDs during competitions? There is more then enough time in between performances to swap out the CD.
What's interesting is there have been a number of times now that I've been given on music files instead of a CD... and at the last Showdown Skye handed me his freakin' iPod.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:58 pm
by GemZombie
Quite simply, my point is this.

The abundance of simplified software choices make it very easy for people to become lazy and not set up cueing and the like.

I'd say most of the people here probably do use their choice of software in a more than adequate way. What I have seen is a proliferation of "new" DJs who are not doing this. If you are not seeing this, then I'm very happy for you and whatever scene you are in. Also, my words tend to exaggerate the actual state of things, as is the case with many forum discussions.

I still dislike iTunes though. I think it has a bad interface. I'm entitled to my opinion.

And finally, I'm not even saying you need "professional" software, there are plenty of free/cheap DJ solutions that are actual DJ software solutions versus glorified mp3 players, such as winamp/WMP/iTunes.

As far as I'm concerned one software package that suites all of my needs is better than running two copies of iTunes, or one iTunes, and one Winamp/WMP. There is less chance of crashing/mistakes/corruption etc. (As we say in the data protection and software engineering world: one point of potential failure is better than mulitple points of potential failure.