The "Removing The CD Player" Debate

It's all about the equipment

Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy

Message
Author
User avatar
fredo
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:59 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

#106 Post by fredo » Tue May 27, 2008 12:13 am

Mr Awesomer wrote:Wait, there are dancers out there who come to dances armed with their favorite CDs to pester the DJs with!?!

Just when you thought dancers couldn't get any lamer.
Ha! You'd be surprised. It doesn't happen everywhere, but I've had it happen to me where people will bring you their fav's and stand there until you play one, or until you convince them that you'll at least listen to it.


remysun wrote:Favorite? No! The DJ should already have the favorites.

A new song that the DJ might not be aware of, or in the case of student DJs, might not have the budget for?
If you really want to help a DJ out, you wont ask them to play a song they've possibly never heard on the spot at a dance-- you'll give them a chance to listen to it later while they're not busy in the middle of a dance. At least that seems more reasonable to me.

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#107 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 27, 2008 12:16 am

remysun wrote:Favorite? No! The DJ should already have the favorites.
There are plenty of "favorites" I don't own, and a few I do but refuse to play (unless it's funny.) A good DJ keeps the floor happy without being a human jukebox.
remysun wrote:A new song that the DJ might not be aware of, or in the case of student DJs, might not have the budget for?
Aside from the rare CD release from the minute number of swing bands worth a damn, what's new? We aren't club DJs who need the latest hits the second they come out, or even worse... wedding DJs.
remysun wrote:What's lame is a DJ foisting the same few songs onto the scene until everyone's sick of the music and stops bothering to come.
What lipi said.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

User avatar
remysun
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:39 pm
Location: Motown

#108 Post by remysun » Tue May 27, 2008 1:34 am

Nate Dogg wrote: DJing is not going back to being CD based. Not going to happen. That is reality. It will keep up with technology. I think there is still a need to have CD players for requests and as back-up if the laptop fails, but there will be a time where the CDs bays are no longer needed, that day might not be that far away.
I don't expect to roll things back, but I think a DJ should still be prepared for a CD request (because requests are good), and I would be very happy if a night's playlist was deleted and built from scratch and on the fly, and could last an entire evening and then some. I don't think playing from one playlist without transitions is Deejaying-- it's playing sound files to an audience, and totally demeans what it means to DJ.

Detroit just held its Electronic Music Festival, and even vinyl is still alive, so I'll keep my equipment for my occasions. We have expanded our options, not replaced them. If somebody needs or wants to take over, they don't need familiarity with my collection, and I find that good for what I do.

But as for ill prepared DJs? Idiot proof the world, and you get a world full of idiots. The best DJs I know refuse to let their professionalism drop just because it has gotten easier. They could exist as a DJ with any medium. With that distinction, I'm happy to let them choose whatever equipment suits them.

Maybe it comes down that I would rather blame the use of a laptop before telling a DJ that they just suck. Those folks don't use CDs much anymore. So when I'm saying that they're not in the same league, it's easier to say why they're not at the level of an old school CD or vinyl DJ, than having to distinguish between those who do and those who don't know what they are doing.

The older medium forced DJs to learn the craft before foisting their skills on an audience. If there could be method to the madness that the pod age has brought about, I could appreciate it just as much, but right now I see laptops and iPods as a personal medium, not an empathic one. Perhaps, if DJs looked up from the screen more?

User avatar
fredo
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:59 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

#109 Post by fredo » Tue May 27, 2008 2:14 am

remysun wrote:Maybe it comes down that I would rather blame the use of a laptop before telling a DJ that they just suck. Those folks don't use CDs much anymore. So when I'm saying that they're not in the same league, it's easier to say why they're not at the level of an old school CD or vinyl DJ, than having to distinguish between those who do and those who don't know what they are doing.

The older medium forced DJs to learn the craft before foisting their skills on an audience. If there could be method to the madness that the pod age has brought about, I could appreciate it just as much, but right now I see laptops and iPods as a personal medium, not an empathic one. Perhaps, if DJs looked up from the screen more?
gotta disagree here. I think the learning curve for being a dj has it's own progression separate from whether you are using CDs, a laptop, an ipod, a turntable, etc. You're combining two separate issues to make a generalized judgment on whatever deejays you seem to have it out for. Just because they dont live up to your standards does not mean it's because they are using a laptop--that's just silly. It's entirely likely they'd be having the same problems if they were using CDs-- its better experience deejaying that they need, not a different output method.

In essence, it seems like what we're really talking about here is song selection, not how songs are selected. Either that, or we're talking about deejays that just don't aren't using their technology to it's potential.

I don't think dancers can tell or care if you are a master at using a CD deck--they just want you to pick out songs that will entertain them.

User avatar
remysun
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:39 pm
Location: Motown

#110 Post by remysun » Tue May 27, 2008 2:52 am

lipi wrote:
What's lame is a DJ foisting the same few songs onto the scene until everyone's sick of the music and stops bothering to come.
WE GET IT. you've made your point. bad djs are bad.

now look what you've made me do. and i thought i was the calm one that didn't rant on this board. *grumble*grumble*
Sorry about that. I thought everybody knew that they couldn't change the other person's mind, but at least some good issues could be addressed, and maybe solutions found.

Last month, we lost two venues, with the old standby under new management, its base dwindled to WTF levels. Last year, we gained a new night based on the success of a birthday party, so it's a disappointing turnaround, having only one good night 40+ miles away from me.

I've gotten a lot of: "You don't go dancing, anymore?" and "No one comes to that night anymore." It's been a chain reaction, from calling people trolls to not playing the B-52's "Love Shack" at least once in a while, but certain people stop coming, and that led more people to quit....

Meanwhile, the startup venue to replace Detroit's old venue was being run through a laptop's sound system (no amp), same songs in the same order, simply because the person who got us this opportunity decided to go with someone who said they had a "track record" from the old venue, versus passion or at least a rotation. The swing music upstairs was constantly overwhelmed by the rock from the bar below. Not a problem the times we had a guest DJ, who'd bring real equipment. One even had a professional mp3 mixing board, both had amps. The passion guy without the track record had amps. We needed amps. The old place came with amps, but the crowd died off. I guess that's a track record.

Anyway, with something similar happening in Ann Arbor (they used to play some shitty mp3's on Wednesdays), I've been wanting to rant about the professionalism, so I apologize to laptop defenders. Yes, it's about ultimately about professionalism; it ain't professional without amps. But how someone could have considered it professional at just the laptop stage defies me.

User avatar
remysun
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:39 pm
Location: Motown

#111 Post by remysun » Tue May 27, 2008 3:05 am

Other than the McLuhan aspects of the medium being the message, I agree with you.
fredo wrote: In essence, it seems like what we're really talking about here is song selection, not how songs are selected. Either that, or we're talking about deejays that just don't aren't using their technology to it's potential.

I don't think dancers can tell or care if you are a master at using a CD deck--they just want you to pick out songs that will entertain them.
Too bad them songs weren't on the playlist, I guess.

Detroit just opened a live venue on the East Side in Grosse Pointe. I'll check that out, and switch to Detroit Bop if I have to. But I've said enough about laptops. Don't think I'm happy being right about why things turned out the way they did. No one told me I was a reason to show up.

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#112 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 27, 2008 9:30 am

remysun wrote:Perhaps, if DJs looked up from the screen more?
Perhaps, if DJs looked up from their book of CDs more?
Perhaps, if DJs looked up from their crate of vinyl more?
Reuben Brown
Southern California

User avatar
kitkat
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 10:34 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

#113 Post by kitkat » Tue May 27, 2008 4:07 pm

Nate Dogg wrote:DJing is not going back to being CD based. Not going to happen. That is reality. It will keep up with technology. I think there is still a need to have CD players for requests and as back-up if the laptop fails, but there will be a time where the CDs bays are no longer needed, that day might not be that far away.
As long as the CD bays are only ditched at the rate any particular scene and/or venue is ready for it...fine by me.

However, people in general often being trend-following morons, I predict at least a few frustrated scenes with dancers asking each other, "Why does the music suck in our town lately?" because a CD deck was taken away before the scene had enough quality laptop DJs to make up for losing 1-2 quality DJs who never bought a laptop. *shrug*

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#114 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 27, 2008 4:38 pm

Another option for those who insist/need to stick to CDs:

Get your own dual CD setup!

You can get them in semi-portable form, complete with a simple mixer, and they are as easy to plug into any sound system as a laptop, for under 2 bills. Even cheaper if you eBay it.

Back in the early days of the swing revival that is exactly what I did in order to be a viable DJ for some gigs. This is also what vinyl DJs (bless their hearts) must do in order to play their preferred medium.

Essentially, this what laptop DJs have done as well... bought their own dual CD/mixer setup that they prefer to work with (and that also just so happens to contain all their music in a nicely indexed manner.)
Reuben Brown
Southern California

User avatar
kitkat
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 10:34 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

#115 Post by kitkat » Wed May 28, 2008 5:02 am

Mr Awesomer wrote:Another option for those who insist/need to stick to CDs:

Get your own dual CD setup!
Of course they could, but that's only if they care that much.

I'm just proposing that sometimes, a scene's best DJs aren't into the DJing enough to spend that kind of money on it.

We've got one here--I won't name her/him, because s/he doesn't post here or claim any recognition as a DJ, but s/he's possibly my favorite in town.

And there's no WAY s/he's gonna drop a dime on new equipment that has no purpose outside of her/his DJing life.

S/he is our best DJ...yet s/he doesn't care enough to spend personal money on new DJing equipment or tote it around.


Anyway, I think it's awesome that you've carried around your own CD players...and heaven knows I have, too, to parks and such...but if a scene's best DJs aren't people who have a lick of interest in doing that (and there aren't enough other "best DJs" to make up for them), it's the scene's loss more than it's the DJ's loss.

SoundInMotionDJ
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 8:27 pm

#116 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Wed May 28, 2008 9:00 am

kitkat wrote:Anyway, I think it's awesome that you've carried around your own CD players...and heaven knows I have, too, to parks and such...but if a scene's best DJs aren't people who have a lick of interest in doing that (and there aren't enough other "best DJs" to make up for them), it's the scene's loss more than it's the DJ's loss.
Has the scene considered paying the DJs? That would provide some additional motivation to invest in tools to DJ.

Has the scene taken up a collection to buy equipment for their best DJs?

--Stan Graves

User avatar
Lawrence
Posts: 1213
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:08 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Contact:

#117 Post by Lawrence » Wed May 28, 2008 9:17 am

kitkat wrote:
Mr Awesomer wrote:Another option for those who insist/need to stick to CDs:

Get your own dual CD setup!
Of course they could, but that's only if they care that much.

I'm just proposing that sometimes, a scene's best DJs aren't into the DJing enough to spend that kind of money on it.

We've got one here--I won't name her/him, because s/he doesn't post here or claim any recognition as a DJ, but s/he's possibly my favorite in town.

And there's no WAY s/he's gonna drop a dime on new equipment that has no purpose outside of her/his DJing life.

S/he is our best DJ...yet s/he doesn't care enough to spend personal money on new DJing equipment or tote it around.


Anyway, I think it's awesome that you've carried around your own CD players...and heaven knows I have, too, to parks and such...but if a scene's best DJs aren't people who have a lick of interest in doing that (and there aren't enough other "best DJs" to make up for them), it's the scene's loss more than it's the DJ's loss.
I agree completely, although I look at it more as an individual venue's responsibility than some sort of loose, amorphous "scene's" responsibility.

One of the reasons I don't like the way Reuben approached the topic is that he subtly turned it into some sort of socialist argument about the way a "scene" morally SHOULD operate given precious, limited resources of a Soviet-like economy: that our Soviet-like "scene" has such limited resources that we need to cut out anything that is not the absolute, perfect way everyone should do it, as determined by a centralized authority who "knows better." ("Trust, us, we're from [Reuben's] government").

Instead, the issue should just be a simple cost/benefit analysis of whether it is worth maintaining a CD player at a particular venue. As Reuben, himself, noted, dual-CD players are cheap; the amp and speakers are the expensive part of a sound system. So the burdens of maintaining a dual-CD player are minimal, not overwhelming. If the best (or even some of the) DJs remain rooted in CDs (as Katie noted, because they don't want to bother changing), no problem; keep the CD player. Whether a venue or "swing-organizer" decides it is worth it will depend on what is going on at that venue, not what Reuben thinks should happen all the way from L.A.

Now, I happen to agree with Reuben that laptop DJing is "better" for many reasons. And if Reuben doesn't want to have a CD player at his venue/event, fine; he can still hire me as his DJ (HA!) because I use a laptop. But it is rather premature (and uppity) to demand that ALL venues should ditch the CD player, all across the country, regardless of what the DJs in the area are doing.
Lawrence Page
Austin Lindy Hop
http://www.AustinLindy.com

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#118 Post by Mr Awesomer » Wed May 28, 2008 9:49 am

If anything I was suggesting a CAPITALIST approach... he who best equips themselves and offers the best product at the best price wins.

I had not taken into account those whom didn't have that drive and thus would not be bothered with doing anything but show up with their tunes. I wouldn't go out of my way to provide for them, but if KitKat felt they offered something worth supporting then more power to her.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

SoundInMotionDJ
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 8:27 pm

#119 Post by SoundInMotionDJ » Wed May 28, 2008 11:36 am

Mr Awesomer wrote:If anything I was suggesting a CAPITALIST approach... he who best equips themselves and offers the best product at the best price wins.
It seems that in many cases for DJs here, the "best price" is "free." Competing against "free" on the basis of capitalistic value can be really hard.

--Stan Graves

User avatar
Mr Awesomer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Altadena, CA
Contact:

#120 Post by Mr Awesomer » Wed May 28, 2008 11:45 am

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:
Mr Awesomer wrote:If anything I was suggesting a CAPITALIST approach... he who best equips themselves and offers the best product at the best price wins.
It seems that in many cases for DJs here, the "best price" is "free." Competing against "free" on the basis of capitalistic value can be really hard.

--Stan Graves
"Profit" to some is the number of gigs they land and notoriety they gain. Free cocaine nets buyers next time around. You'll also note I said "best product" as well. The best events/venues pay their talent (or have very dedicated people who feel "paid" in other ways.)
Reuben Brown
Southern California

Locked