Motown

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Roy
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Motown

#1 Post by Roy » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:47 am

Is playing excessive, mo-town, modern R&B, or funk acceptable at swing dance events?

My personal view that it is not. They can be used for novelty songs but playing excessive amounts of it at a Lindy Hop event or substituing it for blues is just plain wrong. Unless people are trying to west coast, afterall this is the music that westcoasters dance too.

I bring this up because more and more I hear it at exchanges, some dj's seem to get a kick out of playing this stuff for 30 or more minutes, or for 50% of their sets.

I think I'm going to need to take west coast swing lessons for I can properly dance to this stuff.
Last edited by Roy on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#2 Post by gatorgal » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:04 am

I hear a lot of Motown/60s era R&B, funk played at our West Coast dances in So Fla. As you've said, perfectly acceptable.

I play the occasional Marvin Gaye song ("Pride & Joy" or "Got To Give It Up") at our Lindy dances just for variety. I don't think I play it excessively, but that's in the ear of the beholder.

I haven't had the time to look at what I played for SoFlex yet, so I really couldn't tell you if I relied on it too heavily then. I didn't go to that many exchanges in 2003, but I didn't notice the situation you were talking about.

Tina 8)

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Re: Mo-town

#3 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:27 am

Roy wrote: I think I'm going to need to take west coast swing lessons for I can properly dance to this stuff.
While I agree that it is novelty music, since most dancers don't come to an event expecting motown music.

I also wonder if there is such a thing as the "proper" way to dance to motown music. Whenever, I partner dance to the stuff, I never do strict West Coast Swing and I have never felt like I was being improper.

As long as me and the person I am dancing are happy, that is about as proper as I really want to be these days.

Nathan

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Lawrence
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#4 Post by Lawrence » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:10 pm

I've been playing more modern music recently and, accordingly, instructing my Lindy II students on how to interpret the music so as to be able to Lindy Hop to it, so I've felt a bit eager to discuss it, myself.

It totally depends upon your crowd, but I submit it is TOTALLY appropriate to play Motown at a Lindy event so long as you have enough dancers in your crowd who are able to adjust to it. First, some Motown music is played with a swing rhythm (Marvin Gaye's "Pride and Joy," and Sam & Dave's "Soothe Me," for instance), so there shouldn't be a problem at all. Nonetheless, the majority of it (and presumably the "Motown" to which you were referring) has a very similar rhythm: still 4/4 time with an even rhythm, arranged in 4 and 8-count phrases just like the jazz and blues to which we normally dance.

This might be difficult to describe without actually showing you what I mean, but you don't need West Coast Swing classes to Lindy Hop to Motown music; all it takes is an adjustment in the way you interpret the rhythm and tempo in your dancing. For much of what you refer to as "motown" music, the main rhythmic difference/adjustment you need to make is merely in not syncopating your triple-steps because the syncopation is not in the rhythm of the music. Focus on the triplets in the rhythm: the "bat... ba-bat, bat... ba-bat", of the swing rhythm that we manifest with a "tri... ple-step, tri... ple-step." In much of Motown music, those triplets are not syncopated; they are struck with an even-keeled rhythm: "bat-bat-bat, bat-bat-bat," which is somewhat like a cha-cha, non-syncopated triplet. Syncopating your triple steps to the non-syncopated triplets in "Motown" music is why your Lindy Hop feels "off" when dancing to non-syncopated "Motown" music. However, making that adjustment can open your Lindy Hop to all sorts of music.

Another adjustment might be due to tempo because most of what you refer to as "Motown" uses slower tempos that would make many fast vintage-swing enthusiasts cringe even if it were Swing music: from 100-130 BPM. Just don't rush the steps: take more time moving "between" each step.

Mostly the restrictions on playing Motown or other music in 4/4 time depends on how well your dancers will be able to bridge the gap and make those rhythmic adjustments. They can definitely do it even without all this jargon and talk about the rhythmic differences.
Last edited by Lawrence on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#5 Post by julius » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:31 pm

Lawrence wrote: Mostly the restrictions on playing Motown or other music in 4/4 time depends on how well your dancers will be able to bridge the gap and make those rhythmic adjustments. They can definitely do it even without all this jargon and talk about the rhythmic differences. However, if they are closed-minded and agenda-ridden, they'll probably cop an attitude and not even try. Sucks to be them....
The only person I see copping an attitude is you.

I'd rather do carolina shag myself. I never understood the concept of shoe-horning a musical genre into a dance, which seems to me to be the exact opposite of how it should be. I guess I'm agenda-ridden.

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#6 Post by mousethief » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:51 pm

Lawrence wrote:However, if they are closed-minded and agenda-ridden, they'll probably cop an attitude and not even try. Sucks to be them....
Those goddamn lindy hoppers.

Here, they came out because we advertised a swing dance and they complained because we sounded like the local Oldies station.

Hmmm... "Swing at the Fed" or "Sweatin' to the Oldies at the Fed?" Which one is gonna win?

Kalman

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#7 Post by mousethief » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:56 pm

More on topic, I don't think it's really acceptable. Swing swings because of its feeling. If early R&B and classic Motown had true swing feeling, it would not have been the radical musical departure that it was.

Sure, yeah, you can jackhammer some lindy moves on top of it, but that doesn't make it lindy hop. I saw a Dr. Dre video where he had a bunch of thugged out tango dancers on screen. I'm pretty sure they weren't doing tango, no matter how many ochos they did.

I do play some Motown for Blues, though.

Kalman
Last edited by mousethief on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#8 Post by dana » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:57 pm

julius wrote:I'd rather do carolina shag myself. I never understood the concept of shoe-horning a musical genre into a dance, which seems to me to be the exact opposite of how it should be. I guess I'm agenda-ridden.
Hm.. as usual, I'll say that if the song makes people want to dance, and they get up and dance to it, then what harm's been done? Bryan and I will occasionally get our funk on for 5 or 6 songs, but we only do it once a month or even less, and we always get right back on the swing afterwards. I get it when people don't want it 50% of the time or more, but what's the issue with Marvin Gaye's "Pride and Joy" when it very nearly swings, gets beginners out on the floor, and is a generally fun tune?

As far as shoehorning.. if you like to dance lindy, then why not try it out to different types of music? (this is heresy to most of you, I'm sure..) We had a waltz lindy and a 5-count lindy in Victoria so that we could dance to the inevitable waltz that got played at our swing night and to Dave Brubeck's Take 5. It's probably "wrong" but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

d.

edited - speeling
Last edited by dana on Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawrence
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#9 Post by Lawrence » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:59 pm

The only person I see copping an attitude is you.

I'd rather do carolina shag myself. I never understood the concept of shoe-horning a musical genre into a dance, which seems to me to be the exact opposite of how it should be. I guess I'm agenda-ridden.
Amazing... despite all the stuff in that post, that afterthought is the first thing that gets noticed and draws comments. :roll: Lighten up, guys, it's getting boring! Please keep it on topic. (I'll even edit my comment out to make you happy.)
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#10 Post by mousethief » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:09 pm

I don't mind if a DJ slips one in, but I would be miffed if the entire mood of the room shifted because the DJ wanted to run a whole Motown set in the middle of the dance. Not one or two songs, but 3, 4, 8 of them.

Besides, when something very nearly does something and gets a lot of beginners involved, it gets a lot of beginners very nearly doing something. That makey no sense, so maybe it should just really swing instead. Sue me, but I thought we were out to encourage more lindy hoppers to lindy hop.

It's hard enough to do without throwing 17 genres of music at them.

Kalman

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#11 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:10 pm

If I go out dancing to place that advertises themselves as a Lindy Hop venue, I go there with expectations of dancing to music that fits Lindy Hop's basic structure. I do not go there with the intention dancing to music that requires changing my Lindy Hop basics to the point where it is no longer Lindy Hop basics.

If I wanted to dance to these other forms of music, there are plenty of clubs out there that supply such tunes. In fact, many of the venues that host "Swing Nights" also host nights that feature such other tunes. It's bad enough that Lindy Hop venues are so rare these days without them being morfed into being no different then any other dance club out there.

Next year we'll be hearing tips on how to contort your Lindy Hop basics to enable you to dance "Lindy Hop" to Britney Spears... and how you’re a close-minded, agenda-ridden, attitudie tool whom everyone should feel sorry for it you don't accept it.
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#12 Post by mousethief » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:12 pm

I'm a sssssssllaaavee for you.

I've seen it happen - by request, no less.

Kalman

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#13 Post by yedancer » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:18 pm

I often play music that is not lindy hop music, motown stuff included. However, I keep it to a minimum. It obviously depends on the crowd and mood, and also the band if I'm DJing band breaks. But I like to play as much lindy hop music as possible, as opposed to blues, rock, R&B, whatever. I think THAT stuff should be the parsley on the dish of steak and potatoes that is my DJing.

Wow, what a whack sentence that last one was.
-Jeremy

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#14 Post by Mr Awesomer » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:23 pm

A good rule of thumb to go by is to play as much Marvin Gaye (or the like) during a "Lindy Hop" night as Duke Ellington (or the like) is played during a "West Coast Swing" night. hahaha
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#15 Post by julius » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:23 pm

dana wrote: Hm.. as usual, I'll say that if the song makes people want to dance, and they get up and dance to it, then what harm's been done?
No harm is done. I am for anything that gets people to go out partner dancing. But I am wary of the slippery slope as far as music for lindyhopping goes, as Reuben just said. To me the real issue is that West Coast is just enough of a cognate to lindy hop that it fits many non-swing songs much better than lindy hop itself does. Especially since modern West Coast is danced to so much non-swing music (an issue in the WCS world, I must note). As I don't know West Coast, I just fake it. I'm not doing lindy hop, but I'm not doing West Coast either. What is it? It's just dancing. Nothing wrong with that, but I want to do lindy hop!
As far as shoehorning.. if you like to dance lindy, then why not try it out to different types of music?
But I like waltzing to waltz music.

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