Motown

[mousethief]

I often play music that is not lindy hop music, motown stuff included. However, I keep it to a minimum. It obviously depends on the crowd and mood, and also the band if I'm DJing band breaks. But I like to play as much lindy hop music as possible, as opposed to blues, rock, R&B, whatever. I think THAT stuff should be the parsley on the dish of steak and potatoes that is my DJing.

Wow, what a whack sentence that last one was.

I like asparagus.

Kalman

[Lawrence]

If I go out dancing to place that advertises themselves as a Lindy Hop venue, I go there with expectations of dancing to music that fits Lindy Hop's basic structure. I do not go there with the intention dancing to music that requires changing my Lindy Hop basics to the point where it is no longer Lindy Hop basics.

You make a good point about not "falsely advertising," but there is already enough of a division amongst Lindy Hoppers on what is "real" Lindy music, already, even within Swing music. I suspect you and Falty would be equally dissatisfied at my venue, even if I played swing music all night long, because only a fraction of it would come from before 1945; I would probably feel the same way at your venues. No aspersions or sneers intended; we just have different tastes and expect different things from "Lindy" venues. Like it or not, that "problem" has already happened.

Absent the rhythmic syncopation, a lot of Motown music IS, as you wrote, "music that fits Lindy Hop's basic structure." You don't need a different basic pattern or different moves; you just need a slight rhythmic adjustment. The music is still in 4/4 time and fundamentally structured in 4 or 8 count phrases, with 8, 10, 12, or 16 bar "paragraphs." The only thing missing is the syncopated rhythm.

I also disagree that there are plenty of clubs that play "that" music, already. They play a mish-mosh of popular music without paying attention to whether it is in 4/4 time, whether the rhythmic accents interfere with the leadability/followability, and so on. It's not like you can just put any old "Motown" CD on and every song is "Lindy Hoppable" even under the most liberal interpretation of Lindy Hop patterns. You still need a Lindy Hopper to pick the best songs out.

I totally understand where you are coming from. There was a time when "Shiney Stockings" was about as far from 1945 as I wanted to go. But it does work, and MANY Lindy Hoppers do like it. Moreover, I see it as a way to open Lindy Hop up to all kinds of music, which will make the dance more accessible to more people, many of whom will ultimately get into vintage swing music that they otherwise might never have found.

[Mr Awesomer]

But it does work, and MANY Lindy Hoppers do like it. Moreover, I see it as a way to open Lindy Hop up to all kinds of music, which will make the dance more accessible to more people, many of whom will ultimately get into vintage swing music that they otherwise might never have found.

It's already been done with the evolution to West Coast Swing. Feel free to do it again (as many are doing just that) with a focus on Motown and the like, or really any other music you may like to dance to. I'd just recommend not insulting yourself (by selling yourself short by holding onto an old name) and others (those who like Lindy Hop closer to it's roots) by continuing to call it Lindy Hop. It's something "new" and different, celebrate it as such.

[Lawrence]

But it does work, and MANY Lindy Hoppers do like it. Moreover, I see it as a way to open Lindy Hop up to all kinds of music, which will make the dance more accessible to more people, many of whom will ultimately get into vintage swing music that they otherwise might never have found.

It's already been done with the evolution to West Coast Swing. Feel free to do it again (as many are doing just that) with a focus on Motown and the like, or really any other music you may like to dance to. I'd just recommend not insulting yourself (by selling yourself short by holding onto an old name) and others (those who like Lindy Hop closer to it's roots) by continuing to call it Lindy Hop. It's something "new" and different, celebrate it as such.

I suspected so, too. But having just taken a West Coast Swing workshop from a world-class West Coast Swing instructor (if only because I was curious to see if my impressions were correct), I submit very emphatically that playing Motown or other music at Lindy events it is NOT redundant of the West Coast Swing world. There are some vague similarities, but, as Julius was noting, what Lindy Hoppers dance to Motown music isn't West Coast Swing. The precise line might be difficult to draw, but it's definitely more closely related to Lindy Hop than West Coast Swing.

[Mr Awesomer]

I was using West Coast Swing only as an example of Lindy Hop evolving into something different, not as an end all result of what happens when you change Lindy Hop.

[Nate Dogg]

If you ever get on the West Coast YahooGroup*, you can read long diatribes about how Pink, Britney Spears, Hip Hop, electronica and so forth are corrupting things. It is pretty comical how similar the WCS purists can sound to the Lindy purists.

Second, while you hear motown stuff at WCS events, I would not call it the dominant music genre for west coast. At least according to events I have attended and the so-called top ten list that WCS DJs are always submitting to the YahooGroup.

Nathan

* technically it is supposed to be AllSwingDJs, but it mostly westies.

[julius]

when i think 'motown' i think of a very smooth, polished sound. that's how it makes me want to dance. i personally don't think lindy hop is polished or smooth. motown just isn't 'on the edge' enough. i don't feel as much on the spot spontaneity. maybe i'm close minded.

rayned will inevitably IM me and claim yet again that he wants to lindy hop like george lloyd, clean, elegant, and upright. that's because he's afraid of falling and breaking a hip. hee hee.

[gatorgal]

As someone who dances West Coast (badly) and DJs at some of the local West Coast dances (occasionally) I can tell you that Motown is not a part and parcel of WCS dances. I'm not familiar with the Yahoo Group that Nathan has talked about, but the WC DJs here also complain that everybody thinks WCS music is all Pink, Britney and Anastacia and that they want to expand horizons a little.

But of course, when I try to "Lindy-fy" their dances, they get a bit upset.

Either way, I don't think playing the occasional Oldies/Motown song is a bad thing at a Lindy Hop dance, whether it's advertised as such or not. I would think expanding a dancer's horizon, via the music or the steps, would be a good thing. It's all in fun.

Tina

[gatorgal]

when i think 'motown' i think of a very smooth, polished sound. that's how it makes me want to dance. i personally don't think lindy hop is polished or smooth. motown just isn't 'on the edge' enough. i don't feel as much on the spot spontaneity. maybe i'm close minded.

I hope you're kidding. You're not close minded at all... the music makes you feel something different is all. I "do" feel that edge you're talking about and love dancing Lindy to oldies/Motown music.

rayned will inevitably IM me and claim yet again that he wants to lindy hop like george lloyd, clean, elegant, and upright. that's because he's afraid of falling and breaking a hip. hee hee.

Let's not pick on the senior citizens, okay?

Tina

[julius]

Second, while you hear motown stuff at WCS events, I would not call it the dominant music genre for west coast. At least according to events I have attended and the so-called top ten list that WCS DJs are always submitting to the YahooGroup.

I seem to recall from a conversation with a west coaster that the music changed substantially in the late 90s when someone now famous used modern pop/club music for their competition routines. I gather WCS was always danced to blues, moderate rhythm and blues, soul(?), and even the occasional jazz song. I imagine someone who owns very old competition tapes might be able to answer definitively (if there is any social dancing on them).

That is, there has been a substantial shift in the music for west coast in the last decade. In the decade before THAT I heard country-western music and dancing revitalized WCS. In essence west coast has survived for so long as a dance because it changes to incorporate different music.

But the dance has changed considerably. Nobody disputes that. Unfortunately I don't know of any west coasters who attempt to keep the historical origins of the dance, but old competition tapes make it obvious.

In my opinion the difference between the dances is that lindy hop is more closely related to the music and attitudes of the era.

[mousethief]

If you ever get on the West Coast YahooGroup*, you can read long diatribes about how Pink, Britney Spears, Hip Hop, electronica and so forth are corrupting things. It is pretty comical how similar the WCS purists can sound to the Lindy purists.

Second, while you hear motown stuff at WCS events, I would not call it the dominant music genre for west coast. At least according to events I have attended and the so-called top ten list that WCS DJs are always submitting to the YahooGroup.

Nathan

* technically it is supposed to be AllSwingDJs, but it mostly westies.

I'm a WCS purist. A Latin purist too. Ramiro Gonzales from Dallas and I have very similar views on what makes for good WCS music, but I just don't DJ for westies.

But, let me state that I would rather DJ for westies than so-called westie hop dancers. I would rather chunk my collection and rebuild it than repurpose it to jackhammer over a dance form.

BLEAGH.

Kalman

[BryanC]

Being a lindy-hop purist DJ is a luxury. If your scene is big enough and evolved enough to let you do that, that's great. But recognize that it's a luxury.

I personally don't subscribe to the "play it whether they'll dance to it or not" school (which is just one of many opinions on how to help your scene evolve. After all, if that's all you play, they'll HAVE to dance to it _eventually_), because our scene won't support it (they vote with their feet)--and there's still a helluva lot more building to do before we reach anything so evolved as the majority of (or even a substantial portion of) dancers in this scene asking themselves, "Is the syncopation there enough for me to not to feel like I'm jackhammering lindy hop over it?" Maybe someday, I'll have the good fortune to DJ to such a scene.

Is it _actually_ lindy hop or not? Does it fit the requirements of a dance that was never codifield in the first place? If people, by my observation of of dancers on and off the floor, are having a good time, then I'm doing what I set out to do.

[yedancer]

Is it _actually_ lindy hop or not? Does it fit the requirements of a dance that was never codifield in the first place? If people, by my observation of of dancers on and off the floor, are having a good time, then I'm doing what I set out to do.

I think the point was pretty well summarized by Reuben:

It's something "new" and different, celebrate it as such.

and

I was using West Coast Swing only as an example of Lindy Hop evolving into something different, not as an end all result of what happens when you change Lindy Hop.

It amazes me that there are still people who don't see the changes. It also amazes me that there are still DJs who don't realize the part they play in all this.

[CafeSavoy]

I think I'm going to need to take west coast swing lessons for I can properly dance to this stuff.

there are millions of black people who have no idea what wcs is and enjoy dancing to motown.

[Lawrence]

Is it _actually_ lindy hop or not? Does it fit the requirements of a dance that was never codifield in the first place? If people, by my observation of of dancers on and off the floor, are having a good time, then I'm doing what I set out to do.

I think the point was pretty well summarized by Reuben:

It's something "new" and different, celebrate it as such.

Trust me, as a Jew, I would LOVE to re-name the dance, entirely, to manifest this change/evolution and eliminate any reference to that damn Nazi Lindburgh. I would definitely celebrate it. (It is rather ironic (to say the least) that the dance developed to so-called "nigger-Jew" music was named after one of the most public, ardent, and outspoken pro-Nazi American figures of the WWII era.)

Nonetheless, historical anecdotes and one-liners aside, I really think this is one of the most important topics this Board can discuss right now, so I really want to know what you all think in more than a one-liner quip. Lindy Hop is not a Ballroom dance. It is not codified, and it thus is not so limited as you and Reuben claim it is. (West Coast Swing is a Ballroom dance, and IS somewhat codified). Lindy Hop originally evolved as a street dance merely to adapt a dance to the "new" swing music that was out there because no other dance captured the athleticism and energy of the music.

The Motown music about which we are speaking shares every relevant musical similarity to Swing music except the syncopated triplets. The music progresses and regresses in 4-count increments: often four counts upwards, four counts downwards. It has 8, 10, 12, and 16 bar "paragraph" patterns, just like vintage Swing music. It even has call and response patterns. The scales and chord progressions that musically define "Jazz" music are, frankly, irrelevant to Lindy Hop (e.g., we don't do different moves or patterns to an A-minor scale than we do to a C-major scale); it is the rhythmic patterns that Lindy Hop responds to, not the scales or chords. Those rhythmic patterns were adopted by other forms of music (including Motown music), which is why, say, Jump Blues is "Lindy Hoppable" even though its not the original jazz to which Lindy Hop originally evolved. It is not like "jackhammering" a three-count Waltz onto four-beat music.

The only rhythmic thing missing in what we're referring to as "Motown" is the syncopation: the syncopated triplets. Thus, the question remains: what is this fundamental aspect of "Motown Lindy" such that it can't be considered an adaptation of Lindy Hop to match some music we want to dance to: an adaptation just like the original evolution of Lindy Hop adapting to Swing music? If you simply answer "Swing music," then you are arguing in a circle.

To phrase it another way, why are the syncopated triple steps more fundamental to Lindy Hop than, say, 1) the basic 8-count Lindy patterns (swing-out, circle, etc.), 2) the progressions of those 8-count patterns (the circle of going up for four beats, then returning down for four beats; bring her in for four beats, swing her back out for the next four beats), 3) the athletic posture and "feeling" of the dance, 4) the free-form improvisational nature of the dance as a "street dance", and 5) the unique approach toward leading and following with a tigher connection than, say, West Coast Swing or any other Ballroom dance?

I submit that the latter elements are more "fundamental" to Lindy Hop than the syncopated triplets, which is why I submit that Lindy Hop is "evolvable" to any sort of non-syncopated music with a steady "4-beat-feel" rhythm.