Billy May

[Jerry_Jelinek]

Unspoken argument: How does his work as a composer/arranger have any redeeming value on his band? They're two different things and in this case his band's work is far more useful to us as a group than his work as a composer/arranger.

Martin,

Maybe I'm missing your point. But if your arguing that an arranger/composer has no value on music. That the arrangement is only valuable by the band playing it, then I'm very strongly in disagreement with this.

Would you say Duke Ellington was a jazz man? Was he a valuable arranger and composer?

Billy May was one of the all-time elite arrangers and composers in L.A. for 30+ years.

To argue that an arranger has little value on a band is clearly not understanding the importance of the arrangement upon the music.

[LindyChef]

Maybe I need to clarify. I'm not saying that arrangers have no value. I mean as a DJ, if you simplify it to the lowest level, the actual song is the only thing of value to me - not the arrangement, not the band members, not the soloists, not the band leader, etc - just the recording itself. The arranger is just one small element of that recording and far from the most important.

As a DJ, if I had a crappy band playing an Ellington arrangement, that recording has no value to me because I couldn't DJ with it. Just because they were using an Ellington arrangement doesn't necessarily mean that their recording is going to be good.

When I spin, I'm not thinking about who arranged what. I'm asking myself, "Does it make people want to dance? Does it make me want to dance?" The question of who arranged it never even comes up.

Because of that, when I'm in the booth I don't care what he did as an arranger. I care about what he did when he was a band leader. As an arranger, he could have been the best there ever was ... but it doesn't change the fact that when I listen to his band's music, most of it is so syrupy and stiff that I don't even want to listen to it, let alone play it. To me that's why his work as an arranger has little to no redeeming value on his band.

[Jerry_Jelinek]

Maybe I need to clarify.....The arranger is just one small element of that recording and far from the most important.....

This is a major difference between playing music for radio versus dance events. I can quickly decide, just based on the arranger, if the music will fit the style that I'm planning.

That is why I find swing dance music so limiting. This has been discussed by myself in other posts, and I won't belabor the point.

Arranging and composing are a very key and important element of quality music. Performers become the next most important level. The actual recording engineering is the least important (albeit very important to a quality recording).

As a DJ, if I had a crappy band playing an Ellington arrangement, that recording has no value to me because I couldn't DJ with it.

This we most certainly can argee on. A poor performance of a quality composition/arrangement can make a recording worthless.

....but it doesn't change the fact that when I listen to his band's music, most of it is so syrupy and stiff that I don't even want to listen to it, let alone play it. To me that's why his work as an arranger has little to no redeeming value on his band.

Well have you listened to Billy May's arrangements with Charlie Barnet, Glenn Miller, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Louis Armstrong, Bing Crosby, Billy Eckstine, Vic Damone, Rosemary Clooney, Sarah Vaughan, Keely Smith, Ella Fitzgerald, Nancy Wilson , just to name a few?

If your limiting yourself to just his own band between 1950-1954, your comepletely ignorning another 30+ years of arranging.

Billy is a particular passion of mine because of his very innovative arranging and composing styles. I would really find it hard to believe that you can't find some quality arrangements to use for dance events.

[Platypus]

If I like a song, I have started to wonder if I will like other songs written or arranged by that artist. I may not think about it in the booth, but I DO think about things like that as I search for new music. For example, Oscar Peterson. I didn't much care for the song "A Tisket A Tasket" until I heard an arrangement he played. On the other hand, I like Fever, but didn't enjoy Beyonce's version. I admired her vocal range, but didn't like the disco-ish arrangement. It may only be one factor, but it is such an integral piece of the whole....look at Count Basie or Duke Ellington. Their arrangers purposefully arranged music to highlight the strengths of individual band members. I might not think about WHO did arranged the music when I spin, but think about it, we are often spinning the best of the best....why would we HAVE to think about it?

[LindyChef]

I do have albums with songs that are arranged by Billy May ... but I bought them for the artists, not Billy May. Sure some of those arrangements may be pretty darn good, but in the end it matters more to me that Frank Sinatra, Ernie Krivdea, Charlie Barnet's Orchestra, etc, is playing.

The reason that I single out the Billy May Orchestra's recordings is because that is the lowest level we deal with - we play one track at a time. It's not a question of whether I can find quality arrangements by him - dealing at the arrangement level has little to no value to me. I don't go and hand out sheet music arrangments to the dancers on the floor - I play music.

If arrangements were really that important to us as DJs we would be saying , "Wow, I got this new album by so-and-so and it was arranged by toodley-doo! Toodley-doo's arrangements totally kick ass!" I have yet to see someone on this board get that excited about an arranger ...

Like platypus said, I might follow that train of thought to explore what else the composer/arranger has done, but it's not going to be in my thoughts all the time.

I basically approach this like a dancer because first and foremost that's what I am. I play what I like, I play what makes me want to dance. If I came at it from the prospective a jazz aficinado, then sure, the arranger would be more important to me, but I'm not. I'm just a clueless lindy hopper that hates dancing to music that sounds like Lawrence Welk.

[CafeSavoy]

Jerry, Thanks for the info on Billy May. Didn't realize he arranged Cherokee. Now it makes sense why he's on those Time-Life recordings [Serg, i'd second Jesse and suggest starting with those for more Billy May. I haven't gone through them all yet, but you might start with _The Curtain Call_.]

Although i think LIndyChef is right about individual songs being the atomic unit, i think once you get more seriously into collecting you start paying attention to arrangers, especially if you can't tell anything else about the recording. For example, names like Edgar Sampson, Flectcher Henderson, and Sy Oliver might make you take a chance, whereas Neal Hefti might not.

GemZombie, have you heard Teddy Wilson's "In the Mood?"

[LindyChef]

i think once you get more seriously into collecting you start paying attention to arrangers, especially if you can't tell anything else about the recording.

True. Just call me a serious dabbler ... I haven't made that crossover into jazz aficinado just yet I've got too many other addictions

[Lawrence]

GemZombie, have you heard Teddy Wilson's "In the Mood?"

Or Duke Ellington's? (The arrangement does not reveal the melody until 3/4 of the way through the song.)

[GemZombie]

Well, I have heard some songs based on the same riff that are pretty good... a fletcher henderson tune, hot and Anxious. Tar Paper Stomp is another...

But alas, I have not heard a "hot" version of In the Mood. I'm sure they exist, but it was still funny to say

The Glenn Miller version is just so sterile.

[Jerry_Jelinek]

I do have albums with songs that are arranged by Billy May ... but I bought them for the artists, not Billy May.

That is fair enough. I buy CDs and LPs based on the arrangers and not so much for the title artist.

Sure some of those arrangements may be pretty darn good, but in the end it matters more to me that Frank Sinatra, Ernie Krivdea, Charlie Barnet's Orchestra, etc, is playing.

Hey good to see Ernie Krivda gets out to you. Ernie is a local big band that is very popular with the dancers around here. Ernie loves the hard swinging sounds of Billy May, Bill Holman, Al Cohn etc. I'm very glad you use Ernie's recordings at dances. I'll let him know.

....dealing at the arrangement level has little to no value to me. I don't go and hand out sheet music arrangments to the dancers on the floor - I play music.

Well maybe not on the surface. But I know for certain that the same song with very different arrangers will have very different reactions by the DJs like yourself. So the arrangement becomes very important in the how you and the dancers 'feel' the song. Don't underestimate the importance of a good dance arrangement.

Also I must note that in the few days of this discussion, we have come a long way from :

IMHO he's pretty Welk-ish (I personally put him somewhere in the evolutionary tree between Glenn Miller and Welk), but I do admit I like his recording of For Dancers Only.....

We got you to admit that you use some 'Welkish' arrangements by Frank Sinatra in your dances. From now on we should call you the 'Welkisk Chef'.

...If arrangements were really that important... I have yet to see someone on this board get that excited about an arranger ...

That reminds me I must do more posting to this board. Need to keep those arrangers alive to everyone.

....I play what I like, I play what makes me want to dance. If I came at it from the prospective a jazz aficinado, then sure, the arranger would be more important to me, but I'm not....

Same for me. I don't care if the music is good for dancing, I just want the music to be good for listening. Not much difference really.

Also glad to note that you recogonize Billy May as a 'jazz' arranger.

[Jerry_Jelinek]

Jerry, Thanks for the info on Billy May. Didn't realize he arranged Cherokee. Now it makes sense why he's on those Time-Life recordings [Serg, i'd second Jesse and suggest starting with those for more Billy May. I haven't gone through them all yet, but you might start with _The Curtain Call_.]

Rayned, the Time-Life thing is an intersting story. From what I understand for hearing stories from people, Capitol records had the grand idea of recreating big band hits in hi-fi.

This is during the mid 1950s when the 'hifi' craze was really going strong. The Benny Goodmandin Hi-Fi, the Harry James in Hi-Fi series etc.

Capitol had Billy May and Nelson Riddle as the big staff arrangers on contract. That is why Riddle and May appear on so many Capitol sessions in the 50s.

Somehow Capitol got Glen Gray to 'front' the band recordings and use his name. But from what I understand Billy May was really the brains behind the original mid 50s sessions. Thus you have the 3 or 4 volumes of Glen Gray titled LPs that recreate the big band hits.

These mid 50s recordings sold very well. Fast forward to the late 60s. The box set reissues and recreations were in big vogue. Think of the Readers Digest series etc.

Time Life had the idea of recreating a huge box set of recreations. They obviously knew of the Capitol sessions from the mid to late 1950s. They got together with Capitol and thus the Time-Life Swing Era sets were born.

The original LP set was very popular in the typical Time Life subscription series. These came out in the early 1970s.

In the early 1980s Time Life re-issued the LPs again, but this time without the nice fancy books that came with the original LPs from 10 years earlier.

Finally in the mid to late 1990s, Time Life reissued the recordings again in CD form.

Billy May was the chief or should I say 'Chef' architect of the recreations. It is in my opinion the finest set of recreations ever done. Billy is a big reason for that.

Billy May still had the respect of the musicians to grab those top quality players who played in the era and still were active.

....I think once you get more seriously into collecting you start paying attention to arrangers, especially if you can't tell anything else about the recording. For example, names like Edgar Sampson, Flectcher Henderson, and Sy Oliver might make you take a chance, whereas Neal Hefti might not.

Your right on the money. I would think that examining the arranger would also help guide DJs in buying CDs that they may not be familiar with. That is why the arranger is key in defining the dance and listenability of the music. They are very closely tied together.

[CafeSavoy]

Well, I have heard some songs based on the same riff that are pretty good... a fletcher henderson tune, hot and Anxious. Tar Paper Stomp is another...

But alas, I have not heard a "hot" version of In the Mood. I'm sure they exist, but it was still funny to say

The Glenn Miller version is just so sterile.

It was really funny and "In the Mood" is a great song to hate. Although it was one of the most popular songs ever. It even made Frankie's Favorites. Although Miller does have at least one hot version. Have you heard the version on _The Chesterfield Broadcasts_? or the version by his band on _The Sullivan Years_? I think though that you'd like the Teddy Wilson version even though it is a little slower that the two Miller versions just mentioned.