Bop v. Swing

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Lawrence
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Re: Charlie Parker

#16 Post by Lawrence » Tue May 20, 2003 2:33 pm

djstarr wrote: To me, that separates bop from swing or jazz; you can't really dance to bop.
Yes, that's one way of putting the difference between bop and swing. More precisely, its what MAKES the music undanceable (less danceable; unlindyable) that defines Bop: less attention to the rhythm both in melodies and solos, and more complex chord work that provides disharmony and chaos with the rhythm, not harmony and symetry with the rhythm.

I think you mispoke/mistyped when you said that it seperates bop from jazz. Perhaps from "Traditional" jazz, but Bop replaced Swing as the paradigm for jazz, and in some ways still is. Many jazz musicians consider Bop to BE jazz.
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#17 Post by julius » Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:25 pm

you can dance to bop. you can't lindy hop to bop, or at least not comfortably.

musically the difference is a much less pronounced steady rhythm and a more irregular rhythm, exemplified by the drummer dropping bombs on the kick drum instead of thudding a 4/4. time is usually kept on the ride cymbal instead of the hi-hat. and soloists think more about the sixteenth note than the eighth note.

harmonically bop builds on the chords of swing (major, minor, augmented, diminished, 7th, major 7th, and 9th) to include the 11th, the 13th, and many more complex chords like A7#5#9 which I couldn't even begin to spell much less play.

also, soloists tend to end musical phrases with a two note lick ("be bop").

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#18 Post by Lawrence » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:15 am

julius wrote:you can dance to bop. you can't lindy hop to bop, or at least not comfortably.
The musical stuff provides a better technical description than I could provide without consulting or quoting a book, but what do you mean by "you can dance to bop?" Another partner/social dance besides Lindy Hop, or just individually standing and wiggling while "expressing" yourself?

"Say What?" by Miles is Lindy Hoppable. Is that the sort of danceable bop to which you are referring? Or by "danceable" are you referring to free-form "Jazz Dance" in the performance, dance-school sense of the term (not the street-dance sense)?
Last edited by Lawrence on Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#19 Post by mark0tz » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:37 am

Eddie Jefferson? Betty Carter? Bop that swings? hrmz
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Re: Charlie Parker

#20 Post by djstarr » Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:14 am

Lawrence wrote: I think you mispoke/mistyped when you said that it seperates bop from jazz. Perhaps from "Traditional" jazz, but Bop replaced Swing as the paradigm for jazz, and in some ways still is. Many jazz musicians consider Bop to BE jazz.
Sorry for the late reply - somehow I missed the replies to my original post here.

I've been using the term "jazz" to mean "straight-ahead" - i.e. typical of a lot of the modern jazz sound played today; main_stem (Kevin T) already corrected me once on the Delphi forum, and after reading/thinking more about it, I agree with all of you (including Reuben) that the term "jazz" should be reserved for the complete genre, not just specific styles.

I'm just a rookie - so keep on schooling me - I really dig this forum as a place to learn, and where interesting discussion is happening.

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#21 Post by CafeSavoy » Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:08 am

http://www.freddiegreen.org/articles/horricks.html
Count Basie's Orchestra was the principal opponent of this casual dismissal of the guitar from the large jazz group. Though only a matter of five or six years before the sessions at Minton's, Basie's own musical approach had been revolutionary, and though he failed to condemn many of the experimental methods of the modern jazz soloists on the grounds that music must progress in order to avoid stagnation, he became an absolute reactionary when modern jazz suggested tampering with the rhythmic foundations of jazz. He'd endorse the search for new methods of phrasing, the new use of harmony, and so on, but at the attempts to break up the regular beat of jazz he balked. If jazz does not swing, then do not call it jazz; call it a usage of elements of jazz towards another musical end product, but don't label something as jazz when the core musical form has been extracted; these were the Count's musical deductions, and he continued to enforce such a belief within the structure of his own band. The fact that other leaders were giving way did not budge him. Even when modern jazz began to gain ground with musicians and even audiences, he still set his band going with that relaxed, swinging beat, the indomitable child of Kansas City jam sessions, with its four clear beats to the bar, each one carefully balanced and equally emphasized, confident that with such rhythmic surety the front-line instruments could proceed with their improvised explorations. And with his insistence upon a steady 4/4 time, he retained the guitar to give its lightness and lift to the rhythm section, topping the rich bass notes with its tender yet definite rhythmic chords. The four men of the rhythm team, phrasing together with their four beats to the bar, remained, despite the innovations of modern jazz, a constant with each group of musicians the Count employed, oiling the action of the ensemble at all times.

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#22 Post by Lorenzo1950 » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:44 am

I skimmed through most of the posts and it seems you have the gist of the difference between BeBop and Hard Bop the way I see it. I would consider anything beginning around 1954-1956 with Horace Silver's "A Night At Birdland," Sonny Rollins "Tenor Madness" and any of the Clifford Brown/Max Roach recordings to be the early stages of Hard Bop. Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" and "Milestones" are two of the best recordings for Hard Bop and the Bill Evans/Scott LaFaro trio recordings are outstanding. Monk is great, but not for dancers. I played "Jordu" by the Max Roach/Clifford Brown group at a dance and it went over well until the 2 minute drum solo. I also like Dexter Gordon, Harold Land, and George Coleman. Not all of these musicians are Hard Bop but they are my favorites. Bill Evans/Scott LaFaro had more of a freeform improvisational style. And Monk is Monk.
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#23 Post by CafeSavoy » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:49 am

Lorenzo1950 wrote:I played "Jordu" by the Max Roach/Clifford Brown group at a dance and it went over well until the 2 minute drum solo.
The dizzy version might be more danceable.

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#24 Post by Lawrence » Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:14 pm

Lorenzo1950 wrote:Monk is great, but not for dancers. . . . And Monk is Monk.
Not sure about that. I've always been tempted to try out some Monk at dances, just as I have been dabbling in some Miles Davis and Coltrane. Not the way-out stuff, but something like "Straight, No Chaser," or "Monk's Dream."

Query whether WE just need to adapt to it much like I needed to adapt to "Groove" music from the Classic Swing that I "grew up" on? I once overlooked many of my current favorite songs because the rhythm felt too far "off." The problem was MY limitations as a dancer, not the music.

In some sense, I've considered it as yet another way to broaden the music to which we dance and once again break from the chains of familiarity that bind us.
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#25 Post by Doug » Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:29 am

So yes. A lot of bop is hard to dance too - eg much of Parker (Note: Parker's Just Friends off his 10,000 strings album is a favorite of mine.)

But there are a lot of very danceable "bop-tinged" pieces out there that swing and were in fact intended for dancers. For example, a number of the tunes on Honkers and Bar-Walkers Vol 3. Another good example of "bop-tinged" material is some of the stuff on "Jumpin' with the Big Swing Bands". In particular I am thinking of tunes such as Ray McKinley's Tumblebug or Sand Storm.

And none of these have a 'fuck the dancers' attitude.

Methinks thou'all dost generalize too much.

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#26 Post by CafeSavoy » Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:45 am

Rueben and I played some Monk at Harlem Jazz Dance Festival this year.

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#27 Post by Mr Awesomer » Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:56 am

CafeSavoy wrote:Rueben and I played some Monk at Harlem Jazz Dance Festival this year.
...and I don't think anyone noticed but you and I. hahaha
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#28 Post by julius » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:05 pm

Lawrence wrote:but what do you mean by "you can dance to bop?"
Tap adapted to bop. So did solo dancing. Partner dancing -- difficult.
"Say What?" by Miles is Lindy Hoppable. Is that the sort of danceable bop to which you are referring? Or by "danceable" are you referring to free-form "Jazz Dance" in the performance, dance-school sense of the term (not the street-dance sense)?
I assume you mean "So What" from Kind of Blue. I classify that as modal jazz, not bop. (I guess, as Lorenzo states later, it can be thought of as hard bop, but I don't really associate modal jazz with hard bop. But then, I'm no expert.)

Modal jazz uses modes, which are scales built upon the notes of the key. So for example instead of soloing over a ii-V-I change in C (using the chords Dm, G, C) you would play the Mixolydian scale based on C. The music tends to sound sparser and less complex than most bop. Kind of Blue is an entire album based on modes.

My only point was that you can still dance to bop, but you can't really lindy hop to it.

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#29 Post by funkyfreak » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:12 pm

julius wrote: Tap adapted to bop. So did solo dancing. Partner dancing -- difficult.
Depends, as always, on the particular song. People forget that, no, you can't do 'Lindy Hop' as most see it to Bop, but that's why it evolved with the music into what some call Bebop Lindy, or whatever adaptive name the differing historians give it.

-FF

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#30 Post by sonofvu » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:23 pm

Interesting. Now I want to go off and look into bop.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.

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