how does a largely white audience effect the music?

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12bars · #1 Post by **12bars** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:42 am

i post this here even though the start of the paragraph is about the blues, because it applies to swing. we are a scene largely of "whites who embrace black music".

"the (relative) lack of black faces in the crowd has become a greater cause for concern, because with out them the blues no longer represents an oppositional black subculture, merely an up market consumer option. this seems to disturb whites more than it does blacks, and its easy to understand why. in general, whites who embrace black music- be it blues, jazz, rap, whatever- are opening them selves up to aspects of black experience they worry will finally elude them. to be part of the sea of black faces offers offers both a thrill and a validation: one is being granted a privilege denied to other whites. on the other hand, most white who listen exclusively to black music inevitably feel unworthy of it on some vauge, existential level. for some whites this is part of the attraction; far from the least curious aspest of a love whose fulfillment depends on remaining unrequited." -- francis davis, the history of the blues

mousethief · #2 Post by **mousethief** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:11 am

I'm sorry but I really don't see the point. This relates to swing music for DJs in what manner? Is it to say we should play more black artists? Because otherwise, I think it's inappropriate for the board. Next thing, people will be posting Stan Kenton's letters to the editor in here.

And the author writes like Gary Giddens. It never ceases to amaze me how far the critic can distance himself from the artist by language alone. America's appropriation of black music continues to this day, from R&B to Motown to Gospel to Hip Hop, which is a good thing overall.

Kalman

yedancer · #3 Post by **yedancer** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:44 am

What inevitably happens though is that when whitey gets his hands on it, it starts sucking.

12bars · #4 Post by **12bars** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:42 am

it applies because we dicsuss swing music on this board

Kyle · #5 Post by **Kyle** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:02 am

If it is in the wrong catergory, great, suggest a new catergory. dont just flame her because it was miscatergorized.

Mr Awesomer · #6 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:05 am

I've changed the thread title to be a little more descriptive.

mousethief · #7 Post by **mousethief** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:11 am

12bars wrote:it applies because we dicsuss swing music on this board

How so? How does the fact that the scene includes a very small proportion of blacks impact how we DJ?

If Phil, Rayned, Damon and myself are at an event, does that legitimize it? Does it make it better? Does it mean that the event is keepin' it real? Does our presence alter the music played? Does it alter the selections?

It doesn't at all. It's a cultural issue and one better addressed on Yehoodi or another discussion board that does not deal strictly with music. People aren't going out swing dancing to be "part of a sea of black faces" - they're there to dance. To music. Often DJed music.

Kalman

sonofvu · #8 Post by **sonofvu** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:13 am

Wow. Is the author claiming that blues (or swing for that matter) is black people's music but that it is mostly enjoyed by whites?

Or maybe that because there is a lack of blacks in the swing scene, whites feel that they are not really celebrating or connecting to black culture, just merely enjoying the latest trend. So, white people who listen to jazz feel like they are in a special club while at the same time they feel unworthy of being in that club.

So I guess your question is, do the white djs on this thread feel this way?

mousethief · #9 Post by **mousethief** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:16 am

Great title Reuben. See you Friday.

I don't get this. It has nothing to do with DJing. SwingDJs does not have a category for things like this. You have Music, Skillz, Tech, Event and Other Music. Oh, and Support.

It is a cultural issue and we've largely kept the board free from discussions on anything other than music. Perhaps if there were some reason that this was an issue to DJs - can't think of one - but there wasn't one in the post. However, the initial post(s) are pretty much just a quote from an author - however well received - that speaks so far above the heads of the average blues patron that he's already lost his audience.

Kalman

Ron · #10 Post by **Ron** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:16 am

I've always been a little surprised that blacks are so underrepresented in the Lindy Hop dance scene. I don't know enough about culture or demographics to speculate why. Not to mention that if one is not careful, any such speculation risks being offensive.

12bars · #11 Post by **12bars** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:36 am

info in the book here, for some context:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 3?v=glance
http://www.dacapopress.com/focus_mus_ro ... 0306812967

i read this passage last night and i wanted to share it with people i know, that share a love for a type of music that is largly created and preformed by black artists, whos audienceship in this scene (people who really get into the music more than just dancing) is largely white. im not suggesting that the author is right or wrong, i havent formed an opinion about it yet. im rereading the chapter, and was hoping to have a discussion with people in a scene that this passage applys to. i want to know what you guys think.

12bars · #12 Post by **12bars** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:54 am

mousethief wrote:How so? How does the fact that the scene includes a very small proporition of blacks impact how we DJ?

If Phil, Rayned, Damon and myself are at an event, does that legitamize it? Does it make it better? Does it mean that the event is keepin' it real? Does our presence alter the music played? Does it alter the selections?

It doesn't at all. It's a cultural issue and one better addressed on Yehoodi or another discussion board that does not deal strictly with music. People aren't going out swing dancing to be "part of a sea of black faces" - they're there to dance. To music. Often DJed music.

Kalman

i wasnt thinking that it impacted how we dj, but possibly how we listen and participate, but now that you bring it up, does it effect how we dj? are there songs that i would feel more of less comfortable playing for audiences that have a smaller or larger amount of white people?

does racial/ethnic background effect how we listen and participate? i imagin that what effects how we listen and participate, would effect how we dj.

mousethief · #13 Post by **mousethief** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:15 pm

Well, we might as well bring up the Geek Factor, the Lonely Sex Factor, the Daddy Never Let Me See His Playboys Factor, the My Ass Looks Good In These Pants But I'm Still Just A Plain Jane Factor and whatever else ails the DJ/dancer population. I would be willing to discuss this on Yehoodi but not on SwingDJs.

What I'm interested in on this board is keeping most personal discussion out. I want to know what's good music. I want to know why Bechet in '36 is better than '43. I want to know why a particular event rocked while another one fizzled. I want to know why some people think Motown is great swing music or why bop transformed the jazz genre.

The reason why there are not more black/white/latvian people in a given scene is because they don't want to be there. Period.

Kalman

gatorgal · #14 Post by **gatorgal** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:41 pm

yedancer wrote:What inevitably happens though is that when whitey gets his hands on it, it starts sucking.

Everyone knows whitey is evil. Eeeevilllll.

Tina

djstarr · #15 Post by **djstarr** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:49 pm

mousethief wrote:What I'm interested in on this board is keeping most personal discussion out. I want to know what's good music. I want to know why Bechet in '36 is better than '43. I want to know why a particular event rocked while another one fizzled. I want to know why some people think Motown is great swing music or why bop transformed the jazz genre.

Kalman

What is interesting and relevant to me is that race plays a big part in the development of jazz; we've hinted around in the Harry James' 50's thread about this sounds too "white"; it lacks "soul", etc. etc.

Does this mean that we should only play black artists? That's taking it to an extreme. Is music produced by blacks more danceable? This unfortunately sounds racist, because it is - but it is meant as a compliment - if we listed all the artists we talk about and admire on this board, a majority of them will be black. Is this something we should think about when finding good music? If the artist is black it must be danceable, and if they are white it will suck?

I do feel the really great musicians transcended race, such as Louis Armstrong and Jack Teagarden, even though they had to put up with a lot of crap because of the social climate they lived in.

A lot of the other black artists left the US because of race issues; supposedly Bechet did (however I think that might have been more because he was a bad boy than because he was black - anybody care to comment on this?). Did Bechet living in France improve his music?

If Billie Holiday hadn't been dragged down to the south with Artie Shaw would she has sung "Strange Fruit" differently? I heard on a jazz program that Artie wrote "Any old Time" as an apology to Billie for taking her down there.

I do agree with Kalman that discussion around the question "why aren't there more blacks in today's swing community" is something that belongs on another forum, however I think discussing race as a part of the development of jazz is appropriate.