50s bands for swing dancing

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Lawrence
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#181 Post by Lawrence » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:19 pm

julius wrote:Yeah, far be it from us to see his point of view. Make him see ours instead. You go, Lawrence. Tell him like it is!

I think you could have phrased your sentiment a little less rudely.
(*yawn*)


hy·poc·ri·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.


I suspect you implied a tone into my previous post that was not at all intended back then, and is only half-heartedly intended right now.
Lawrence Page
Austin Lindy Hop
http://www.AustinLindy.com

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GemZombie
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Re: Turnabout, Jerry.

#182 Post by GemZombie » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:36 am

julius wrote:
Doug wrote:But please; I know that _many_ of you dance DJs will recognize many/most/all of the samples that I have included, so please no comments regarding the group/orchestra that is performing.
JESSE IS A SKIMMER!
Doh, that's what i get for reading this at work.

I went back and edited out the band names :)

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djstarr
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#183 Post by djstarr » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:03 pm

Jerry_Jelinek wrote:Ok to add fuel to the debate fire, I put up 10 new clips:

http://www.wkhr.org/SwingDJs/
I'm a little late to the game, but I'll play anyway - I think I agree for the most part with the other Dj's who posted replies on your new section of clips.

#1 slow, Boring, low energy
#2 sweet sound, low energy, no drive
#3 It's a little better, but still no drive
#4 Good energy, don't like the trumpet squeals, rhythm section uneven.
#5 I was really happy with this until the vibes came in --- it ruined the song, although with repetition this might be a fad hit
#6 I'd try it - it's sounds very heavy though
#7 Good, has a nice KC sound to it, but I thought the wind section at the end was out of tune and it made be not like it as much - drums are also a tad annoying
#8 Yes, I'd try it - sounds "groovy" to me - perhaps this is the '60s track? Sounds a little bit like the Milt Jackson/Count Basie stuff.
#9 I like this; I'd try it, not sure people would dance to it, but I dig the sax. Very boppish - if not Benny Carter perhaps one of the his friends who's on Further Definitions?
#10 I enjoyed this rendition of Take the A Train -- perhaps some early LCJO stuff? very artsy indeed ;-)

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djstarr
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Re: Turnabout, Jerry.

#184 Post by djstarr » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:14 pm

Doug wrote:The 10 mp3 files are at: http://www.swingfusion.com/music Comments are solicited. Note that 01.mp3 is the bonus track. But please; I know that _many_ of you dance DJs will recognize many/most/all of the samples that I have included, so please no comments regarding the group/orchestra that is performing.
thanks for posting these Doug --- and I really suck at recognizing instrumentals - is it ok to guess at a couple? And I wouldn't have pegged track #8 since I only own one CD of the band (I read Jesse's reply before he edited it although it doesn't influence my answers).

#1 - I'd play this if the groove/blues crowd was in the house - we get a lot of similar tunes played here. Didn't like the intro, but once the vocal kicks in it's good.
#2 - Yes, I'd play this. Sounds like an Artie Shaw or Benny Goodman recreation.
#3 - No. This is modern groove to me, but fast, which I don't think goes over that well - I save my fast songs for vintage selections.
#4 - No. Low energy, kind of blah sounding.
#5 - Maybe, I like the riff, hate the intro, don't like the drums.
#6 - Yes, good beat although the drums sound weird to me; heavy horns - rough sounding overall, but it makes me want to dance.
#7 - Definitely - sounds like some of the Duke Heitger Julius posted - we are starting to play a lot more hot/trad jazz style such as this and people are digging it here.
#8 - yes, great band. live and on CD ;-)
#9 - Yes, I know the song and specific selection, but I can't name it - this track gets Dj'ed a lot in Seattle.
#10 - Yes, sounds like some Jack Teagarden stuff -- is the song "when my best gal turned me down"?

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Re: Turnabout, Jerry.

#185 Post by LindyChef » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:58 pm

Jerry_Jelinek wrote:Ok to add fuel to the debate fire, I put up 10 new clips:

http://www.wkhr.org/SwingDJs/
1. I quite liked the piano intro and solo, but the rest is more or a foxtrot feel ... wouldn't use it.
2. Some might mistake this for a groovy feel, but I think the the trumpet is way too jazzy and distracting ... wouldn't use it.
3. Again, some might mistake this for a groovy feel, but this tune is just too bland ... wouldn't use it.
4. High BPM but it doesn't feel as tight as it should be ... I might use it in a pinch.
5. Nice little song, but the xylophone bugs me a little bit ... otherwise, I'd probably use it.
6. IMO, worst rendition of shoo shoo baby ever. Ever. Feels like a bad game show theme song.
7. Very solid, but like everyone else says, the cymbals are a bit annoying ... I would love to see this tune be performed more by a New Orleans style jazz band.
8. Nice piano and rhythm section, but a little too laid back. I'd be interested, though, in checking out other songs by this artist.
9. Love the sax, but like Julius I'd like to hear more of the rhythm section
10. My favorite of the bunch to just for listening enjoyment ... I wouldn't be opposed to hearing this at about 5 AM at an exchange, but it's not something that I would put on.
Doug wrote:The 10 mp3 files are at: http://www.swingfusion.com/music Comments are solicited. Note that 01.mp3 is the bonus track. But please; I know that _many_ of you dance DJs will recognize many/most/all of the samples that I have included, so please no comments regarding the group/orchestra that is performing.
1. Nice little blues number ... definitely would play it
2. Know the band ... used the song before and definitely would again.
3. Nice modern jazz guitar piece. I'd be interested in using it.
4. What bugs me about this one is that in the intro the piano doesn't feel like it's working together with the rhythm section ...
5. I like this tune a lot, solid beat and nice melodies with the horns and the guitar ... who's the artist?
6. Sounds like the recording could have been mixed better, but it's got the energy ... I'd love to see them live.
7. Great New Orleans jazz sound ... I don't particularly like this version of Honeysuckle Rose, but I'd love to hear the CD
8. Tight, tight, tight ... nice reproduction sound ...
9. No passion. Boring.
10. I'm with Gem ... not a big trombone fan, so this selection doesn't doesn't really do it for me ... maybe it has to do with some childhood trauma involving Glenn Miller ;)

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#186 Post by Jerry_Jelinek » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:05 pm

Hi Doug,

Thanks again for posting the music. I finally have some time to digest the samples and add my comments. I want to
preface my comments with the disclaimer that I will jabber on for a bit in this post. If you have trouble digesting a
post that is longer than some scant lines, than you best skip this posting.

The first thing I noticed is the selections don't seem to be 1950s bands. This is not a negative. My initial topic on
this was 1950s bands. With the recent fun people have been having listening to known and unknown song samples, it might
be a good idea to start a new topic entirely. I think we have strayed away enough from the initial thoughts on 50s
bands to do that. Can a moderator start a new thread just for song sampling discussions?

OK, lets dig into the music - YEAH!!!

All of the music in Doug's selections are good for listening. I would intermix these all into my shows.
Also all of these performances I have never heard before. THAT is what I really need. In absorbing and enjoying the
musical selections, I am getting a better feel for the dancers and the preferences of the pro swing dance DJs.

Clip 1 - Kind of a shuffle blues. Because of the lower MP3 bitrate, it is really tough to know the overall sound
quality. It sounds a bit hollow, but that might be as much MP3 compression artifacts as anything. This vocal style is
not one of my favorites. I'm not as much of a fan of accoustic blues and this sounds like the player is singing in a
more traditional blues style.

Clip 2 - Nice little group. Nice arrangement. Sounds a wee bit like Eddie Reed for the short clarinet portion
featured. I have 2 of Eddie Reeds CDs and enjoy both of them. He is a huge fan of Artie Shaw and thus the preference
for hotter swing stylings. Nice chart.

Clip 3 - This is BY FAR my favorite!!! I had already PM'd Doug about this. I love the arranging of the guitar with the
sax. This CD I have to get. I love jazz guitar in the harder swing style, and this goes right down main street for
me.

Clip 4 - Nice little Basie groove setup. A wee bit weak on the arranging. Having the trumpet and sax double the exact
notes doesn't do as much for me. Now during the song, the may end up blowing really well together. Would like to hear
more of this one to appreciate the trumpet player and sax player more.

Clip 5 - Nice little muted trumpet lip trill to start. Kind of a Rex Stewart thing. Would actually like the song to
be more of a bluesy thing after the intro. Nice groove feel, but again having the trumpet and sax duplicate the notes
is a bit bland. I do like the guitar work and would like to hear how this develops.

Clip 6 - Nice little rhythm section setup. I would like to hear more to know how much the tenor player continues with
the more aggressive honking style. I'm not a big fan of the honking style of tenor playing that the sax player starts
out with.

Clip 7 - VERY nice little traditional jazz thing. Love the harmony of the cornet and the clarinet. VERY nice cornet
work and interplay with the clarinet. Reminds me a lot of the style that Kenny Davern and Bob Wilber have done with the
Soprano Summit recordings. This is another one I have to hear A LOT more of. Doug, have you ever listened to Soprano
Summit, I think you would really like them.

Clip 8 - This feels like more of a charleston type of song, not really swing. The arranging feels flat to me in the
clip. It may develope into something I would enjoy more. Reminds me a wee bit of a Larry Clinton dance thing from the
30s.

Clip 9 - Nice early swing stylings. I like the arranging and would really like to hear how this develops more.

Clip 10 - Nice sweeter style of swing. Reminds me of a Tommy Dorsey dance chart. I like the interplay of the sweet
trombone with the small backup horn group. The only thing lacking is MORE HORNS!!! It would really be better in a big
band setting with harder hits.

In summary, Clip 3 and Clip 7 are my favorties. All are playable and I'll let the pro Swing DJs decide on what is
danceable.

In reading the comments of choices the pro dance DJs made on the music, I was a wee bit surprised that the like and
dislike for dancing was about 70% for playing at a dance, and 30% for not playing. That ratio surprises me. I really
would have thought it would be much closer to 90 or 100%.

I enjoy the interplay of comparing different music for dances. It further helps emphasize my love of listening to the
music versus having to satisfy the swing dancers.

The biggest negative of the selections is a consistency in tempo and beat. This is not a negative on Doug's selections.
It is a negative on the need to satisfy the dancers with a limited range of moods and tempos.

Again as Brenda has pointed out, the radio DJ work is different and these song selections just help showcase those
differences.

Next week, I'll throw up some more samples. The next set won't be limited to 50s bands. I'll grab stuff from many eras
as a talking basis.

Thanks Doug for taking the time to post the sound clips - FUN STUFF!!!!

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#187 Post by Jerry_Jelinek » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:29 pm

Here is the detailed information on the song samples I put up recently at:

http://www.wkhr.org/SwingDJs/

(CLIP 1) Baby Come Home - Bob Florence: Name Band 1959 - Fresh Sound FSCD2008
Mainly a hard swingin bebop band. Has 23 tracks (12 are alternate
tracks of the same song). Mix between hard swing, bebop and a few
ballads.

(CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.

(CLIP 6) Shoo-Shoo Baby - Dennis Farnon : Caution Men Swinging - RCA CD
74321611092 - Has 11 tracks of very original swing arrangements. All
are great listening, but I'm not sure how many the pro swing dance DJs
will enjoy.

(CLIP 3) Dancing Nitely - Maynard Ferguson - Jazz Masters 52 Verve
CD 314 529 905-2 One of the top modern swing/bebop bands of the late
50s. Has 16 tracks - Maybe half would be danceable things. Lots of
hard hitting horns and arrangements.

(CLIP 4) For Jumpers Only - Cat Anderson - CD For Jumpers Only - Delmark CD
DX-909 - A sampler of the Chicago famed Delmark label. Has 12 tracks
for swing, and R&B dancing.

(CLIP 9)Top 'N' Bottom - Tab Smith - CD For Jumpers Only - Delmark CD
DX-909 - A sampler of the Chicago famed Delmark label. Has 12 tracks
for swing, and R&B dancing.

(Clip 5)Got a Date with An Angel - Les Brown - 2 Lps on 1 CD - Great Songs of
the Great Bands/ Revolving Bandstand - Collectables COL-CD-6668 - The
first 12 tracks are 50s arrangements of classic big band songs. The
last 14 tracks are a simulated radio show of swing and ballads with no
distinct seperation between songs.

(CLIP 2) Bimsha Swing - J. J. Johnson - J. J. Johnson and his Big Band - RCA CD
6277-2-RB - Thelonius Monk classic song with an 1960s arrangement. This
CD is more jazz blowing by the great J. J. Johnson.

(CLIP 8) The Beat - Henry Mancini - RCA 74321 26047 2 - The Blues and the Beat -
One of Mancini's first recording. Half is slower blues, half is more
swing things. Plus a few bonus tracks from a 1960s album. Mancini is
still one of the most original arrangers of all-time. His first
recordings were big band inspired.

(CLIP 10) Take the A Train - Clayton Hamilton Jazz Orchestra - Heart and Soul - on
Capri label CD 74028-2 - One of the best, hard swingin big bands on the
scene today. This track is by far the slowest version of Take the A
Train that I have ever heard. Features Jeff Clayton on alto.

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#188 Post by Jerry_Jelinek » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:15 pm

Doug had made some postings regarding some of my comments on hi-fi recordings versus lo-fi:
Doug wrote:Jerry - I couldn't let your comments about our collective prefered audio fidelity pass unanswered. It was
almost as though you were implying that it was the lo-fidelity of the recordings that created the sound that we like to
dance to, and that hifi recordings would be viewed as undanceable. So I figured that turnabout is fair play.
Doug your right to a point. Let me quote from a previous post that I made during the discussions of hi-hat work,
especially in my initial sound clips from Harry James bands. The converstation was centering on the hi-hat pattern of
open and close that was in many of the Harry James sound samples I posted. The discussion had centered on the pattern
that some of the swing pro DJs disliked. What was baffling to me and others, and still is, the pattern is used in so
many dance swing tracks, especially Basie. I was really confused as to why the pattern was so disliked, yet appears in
many of the songs the DJs liked so much. I had a theory that it wasn't the pattern, but maybe the frequencies of the
hi-hat in the sound samples I posted:
Jerry wrote:It is begining to look like you are not really disliking the playing, but more the recording. I don't
recall dates on these tracks, but this one may be a wee bit older. Thus the mic'g and recording technology might be less
'hi'fi'. Thus the frequencies of the hi-hat may be much more subdued. I'm just guessing that you don't like hi
frequencies in the drum cymbols.

This would be consistent with listening to primarily older (pre 1955) drummers. Again the dynamics and frequencies would
be much more subdued.
The next reference to hi-fi versus lo-fi centered on 'blaring' horns in some of the sound samples I posted. Doug voiced
his dislike of blaring horns. This was my response:
Jerry wrote:Here is my point. The bands of the classical swing era (Basie, Goodman, Ellington, Lunceford, Henderson,
etc) all had blaring horns. By having a full 15-20 piece group it is nearly impossible to not have some blaring in the
arrangements. One of the big reasons to have a large group in the 30s and 40s was the ability to play large halls. They
didn't have good sound systems and the bands would be mainly accoustic. It is nearly impossible to project in a large
hall without VOLUME and blaring.

The reason you don't associate these bands with blaring horns is the lo-fi fidely couldn't give you the wide dynamics
associated with the loud bands.
After Dougs sound samples, I understand his ideas more. All of his sound clips didn't have blaring horns (except maybe
the honking tenor on clip 6. But I want to emphasize that these are small group arrangements. I was emphasizing in my
comments that big bands from nearly every era had loud horn sections.

As the arranging for big bands became much more sophisticated in the later 30s and on, arrangers wanted to have more
expression in the music. Sharp contrasts in dynamics is one such effect.

I'll stand by my statement. If you could be magically transferred back to the 30s and hear the Basie band, or Goodman
big bands live, you might think they had blaring horns. The lo-fi recordings just couldn't match the dynamics of the
bands. The hi-fi recordings and more use of dynamics in arranging in the post 50s big bands emphasized the blaring
horns more.

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#189 Post by CafeSavoy » Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:48 pm

Jerry_Jelinek wrote: (CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.
Nice version. I played it last night.

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#190 Post by Swifty » Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:36 am

Jerry_Jelinek wrote:(CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.
I have this on vinyl and really love it, I didn't know it was available on CD.

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#191 Post by Doug » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:15 pm

Jerry_Jelinek wrote:Hi Doug,
The first thing I noticed is the selections don't seem to be 1950s bands.
Actually, two were 50s groups, one from the 80s, and the remaining were from 1999 and more recent. I said I cheated :?
Jerry_Jelinek wrote: In reading the comments of choices the pro dance DJs made on the music, I was a wee bit surprised that the like and
dislike for dancing was about 70% for playing at a dance, and 30% for not playing. That ratio surprises me. I really
would have thought it would be much closer to 90 or 100%.
And you might especially take note of the fact that at least one of these clips was loved by one DJ and deemed unplayable by another! We have NO stinkin' uninimity around here!
Jerry_Jelinek wrote: But I want to emphasize that these are small group arrangements. I was emphasizing in my
comments that big bands from nearly every era had loud horn sections.
Well, no. Some of these were small groups and some were big bands. That was part of the point of my selections. And I'll give a hint. One of these selections was a Fletcher Henderson arrangement recorded by a big band under the direction of Bob Wilber.
Jerry_Jelinek wrote: The biggest negative of the selections is a consistency in tempo and beat.
This is not a negative on Doug's selections.
It is a negative on the need to satisfy the dancers with a limited range of moods and tempos.
Well, no. Please note that in my original post I commented that this should not be mistaken for a set and that the pieces were "too much the same". I, and all here, would likely play a much broader range over the course of an evening. The one thing that we all do try to manage is the feel and energy of a given set, and each of us has an individual way of building a set. This was not a set!

Saturday night I will post the bands and the selections for those of you you don't already know them, so if you want to comment prior to knowing these additional data, please do so.

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#192 Post by KevinSchaper » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:48 pm

Swifty wrote:
Jerry_Jelinek wrote:(CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.
I have this on vinyl and really love it, I didn't know it was available on CD.
I don't think it is - I think everybody's just buying the record..

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#193 Post by Swifty » Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:31 pm

KevinSchaper wrote:
Swifty wrote:
Jerry_Jelinek wrote:(CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.
I have this on vinyl and really love it, I didn't know it was available on CD.
I don't think it is - I think everybody's just buying the record..
Actually I've found some online, it's on CD as a UK import. It's going for about $25-$30 in various places.

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#194 Post by Shorty Dave » Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:43 pm

Jerry_Jelinek wrote:Clip 7 - VERY nice little traditional jazz thing. Love the harmony of the cornet and the clarinet. VERY nice cornet
work and interplay with the clarinet. Reminds me a lot of the style that Kenny Davern and Bob Wilber have done with the
Soprano Summit recordings. This is another one I have to hear A LOT more of. Doug, have you ever listened to Soprano
Summit, I think you would really like them.
Haven't listened to the songs yet myself, but I just didn't want this to get overlooked for those skimming the thread (ha ha)

I just wanted to second the thumbs up for the Soprano Summit recordings specifically and the Chiaroscuro label in general :)

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#195 Post by CafeSavoy » Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:42 pm

KevinSchaper wrote:
Swifty wrote:
Jerry_Jelinek wrote:(CLIP 7)Sugar Foot Stomp - The Big Reunion - Fletcher Henderson All Stars -
Fresh Sound FSR-CD 44 - All star reunion of Henderson alumni. Has 9
tracks with hto jazz, swing and a few ballads.
I have this on vinyl and really love it, I didn't know it was available on CD.
I don't think it is - I think everybody's just buying the record..
I have it on cd. Might have gotten it at Jazz Record Mart in Chicago.

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