Too much groove for me, lately

[falty411]

but historically, in NYC during the swing era the white lindy hoppers, by and large, preferred the slower tempos.

Where did you find this fact?

From people that were there, from Harvest Moon Ball contest footage, from 4 different dance historians, and from 2 books. Both Norma's book "Swinging at the Savoy" and Marshall Stearns book "Jazz Dance"

[falty411]

I thought your statement inferred that if people can't dance faster than 180BPM there is a problem with fundamentals. But I can't because I don't practice.
Frankie, Bill and Dawn have given me props on my teaching, so I think I can safely say I'm pretty decent with my fundamentals. I know how to teach a variety of stuff in a variety of ways, but I mostly teach what I like along with stuff that I think I'm "supposed" to teach.

Frankie may have given you props, but if you respect his opinion he has also said

"We could dance fast easily because we knew what we were doing slow. We REALLY knew it so it wasn't a problem to do it fast."

[falty411]

Your casual social dancer will have a problem dancing fast. It takes skills to make the dance comfortable (as Kristin has said), much less make it look good.

it takes skill to make any speed of dance comfortable. Ill tell you what though, all the people who never took a lesson because there were hardly any classes in like 97 98ish sure had NO problem dancing fast fast fast all night every night with no skill what so ever. they were beginners, but they did it and it was easy.

[julius]

But that's the point: it is too much work. It's not worth it! (to me and a lot of people)

How much work do you put into other aspects of your dancing? Is it the sheer physical effort involved in dancing fast that turns you off to it, or the repetitive drudgery required to improve at it? In my opinion most things worth pursuing in dance are physically very hard first, but with enough practice, it becomes nearly effortless.

I can see your viewpoint, because with years of effort, I could do the splits. But I'm not so into doing the splits that I want to put years of effort into it. So it is with you and fast dancing.

My bottom line is that judgment sucks. I don't give a damn what others say about me, my dancing or my DJing. But when people make sweeping generalizations about the scene and whether or not something is "appropriate" to fit their label, I think it's gross and doesn't do a service to our community overall.

I agree. But I think judgment and generalizations actually do a lot to improve the state of dancing overall, because it forces us to think about it. It brings important issues into the open for debate. Remember Savoy vs. Hollywood? After years of argument, it eventually went away entirely once people got better at dancing, period. What we didn't realize was that it wasn't a style issue, it was a question of rigidly defined and incompatible technique on both sides with a heaping helping of attitude. I think the perennial fast vs. slow debate is similar. If everybody COULD dance fast (180+) but chose not to, we wouldn't be arguing about this day in and day out.

In the end what bothers me most is the asymmetry: people who enjoy dancing faster might not want to dance slow, but they can (even if badly), and do. people who enjoy dancing slower might not want to dance fast, and some can't, and won't.

Re brenda's comment about casual social dancers not being able to dance fast ... I've been at this on and off for about six years and I think I'm a casual social dancer. I don't think I'm especially gifted at dancing either, as anybody who has seen me try to do blues or tango can attest. There are only two reasons that I can dance fast. One is that I am exposed to faster music constantly, and the other is that I want to be dancing all the time because I love it so much. As I am sure Greg (and everyone else here) loves dancing as much as I do, I think in the end it boils down to not exposing people to enough fast music to get comfortable with it.

[mousethief]

W.O.R.D. up!

Kalman

[Ron]

You know, I really have no idea what this thread is about now. What exactly are you guys arguing about?

So some people like to dance fast, some people like to dance slow. So what? People have preferences. It sounds like some people feel strongly about the benefits of learning to dance fast. So what? People have preferences.

What's this got to do with djing, again?

[mousethief]

How the DJs approach the crowd for one. How the DJs build the night and what kind of energy they try to build for another. In some ways, you could even argue the validity of Neoswing in the current dance scene.

Julius and myself have explicitly stated that unless DJs expose people to faster music, no one will ever develop any skill at dancing to it. And I don't think an up-tempo version of "I'd Rather Drink Muddy Water" is a good example of how a DJ is "keeping it real."

If some people want to dance strictly to post-war, KC blues from the Hey-Hey recorded after midnight on a Thursday, that's fine. It's a social activity and they can do what they want. But how much of that is really the DJs call and how much of it is the DJs personal agenda?

I don't know.

Kalman

[djstarr]

Re brenda's comment about casual social dancers not being able to dance fast ... I've been at this on and off for about six years and I think I'm a casual social dancer. I don't think I'm especially gifted at dancing either, as anybody who has seen me try to do blues or tango can attest. There are only two reasons that I can dance fast. One is that I am exposed to faster music constantly, and the other is that I want to be dancing all the time because I love it so much. As I am sure Greg (and everyone else here) loves dancing as much as I do, I think in the end it boils down to not exposing people to enough fast music to get comfortable with it.

Casual social dancing - as in taking road trips to visit dance cities and going to exchanges several times a year?

I was talking more about the person who goes out once a week at most (more like a couple of times a month) because it's fun to go out dancing, but it is a casual hobby. I have several friends in this category, and they are much more drawn to blues/groove than to vintage.

I label myself a dedicated social dancer - someone who due to physical limitations and no desire to practice won't ever make it into a performance troupe or the competition circuit. But I like music of all tempos and like to dance to music of all tempos --- I really appreciate more of the partner charleston stuff we have been mixing in with lindy and bal since it allows me to dance to faster music.

And college kids can pretty much dance to fast music all night long regardless of skill because they are young and still have gumby legs.

I definitely think a broad range of music should be presented when dj'ing -- and I think it's also cool if there are specific venues where you know you will here predominantly fast or predominantly slow music - that lets you focus in and develop skills you may not have.

But I stick to my main point that tempo is an issue that has to be dealt with when Dj'ing.

[Swifty]

but historically, in NYC during the swing era the white lindy hoppers, by and large, preferred the slower tempos.

Where did you find this fact?

From people that were there...

Can I ask who? And if they told you this directly?

...from Harvest Moon Ball contest footage...

How can contest footage tell you that white lindy hoppers preferred slower tempos?

...from 4 different dance historians...

Can I ask who again, and from where they got this information?

...and from 2 books. Both Norma's book "Swinging at the Savoy" and Marshall Stearns book "Jazz Dance."

It's been a long time since I've read Norma's book, and I must admit I've never read the Searns book. I don't remember reading that in "Swinging at the Savoy," but I'll take your word for it that it's there.

However, if you take Norma's statement that you paraphrased earlier - "what the Savoy lindy hoppers did to set themeselves apart was to dance as fast as possible" - I would say that it declares that Savoy dancers preferred fast tempos over non-Savoy dancers, and doesn't include race at all. (Incidentally, I'd say the same goes for the Harvest Moon footage, but I haven't seen much of that either)

So basically I'd read that statement as Savoy vs. non-Savoy, not black vs. white. I would agree that white lindy hoppers would most likely be "non-Savoy" (even though it was an integrated ballroom...but I digress), but so would black dancers that were regulars at the Alhambra, Rennaissance, and other Harlem ballrooms.

There is no doubt in my mind that Savoy dancers set themselves apart from dancers from the other ballrooms. There is a reason that Frankie said he "moved up" from the Alhambra to the Ren to the Savoy. It's entirely possible that I'm being naive, I just have a hard time believing race holds a predisposition for tempo.

Regardless, I must admit that I'm really intrigued by the statement.

[Swifty]

I've been at this on and off for about six years and I think I'm a casual social dancer.

Casual dancers don't start threads on the SwingDJs board entitled Relation between music and dance

[Swifty]

How the DJs approach the crowd for one. How the DJs build the night and what kind of energy they try to build for another. In some ways, you could even argue the validity of Neoswing in the current dance scene.

Let me just state for the record that neo-swing does not equal fast and fast does not equal neo-swing.

[Mr Awesomer]

I've been at this on and off for about six years and I think I'm a casual social dancer.

Casual dancers don't start threads on the SwingDJs board entitled Relation between music and dance

I would call Jesse a casual dancer, and technically he started that thread and gave it its title when he split it from this thread. haha

[julius]

I've been at this on and off for about six years and I think I'm a casual social dancer.

Casual dancers don't start threads on the SwingDJs board entitled Relation between music and dance

Ah, so the key to dancing fast is to post online!

But where does that leave RubyMae?

ah ah ah

[julius]

I was talking more about the person who goes out once a week at most (more like a couple of times a month) because it's fun to go out dancing, but it is a casual hobby. I have several friends in this category, and they are much more drawn to blues/groove than to vintage.

So why is it that some people who dance as much or more than I do still don't/can't/won't dance fast? I wasn't trying to refute your statement. I wanted to show that lack of exposure to the music (this is where it relates to DJing, Ron) is a major factor in people's preferences. If you don't know what you're missing, you never have a chance to decide for yourself.

[falty411]

The people that were there that I have heard this from include: Frankie, Sugar Sullivan, and Norma Miller, Joveda Ballard and Jessie (forget last name) who was a white dude who occasionally went to the savoy. And in a taped interview with Al Minns. The story with it is all the same. The would say that in the competitions, the dancers set the tempos. The white kids would always be trying to keep the tempos down but the Harlem dancers always asked for the tempo to go up. They said they did this cause they knew the white kids couldn't keep up cause they didn't prefer those tempos. Jessie stated that he would like to go up to the savoy because the music and the dancing was much faster up there and thats what he really enjoyed and that the Downtown ballrooms played much slower. Sugar said that they only liked to dance when it was hot. The slow tempos were for the donwtown kids.

Harvest Moon Ball footage is easy to see, because again the dancers set the tempos in each heat. Watching the floor when it is all white or white dominated, the tempos are MUCH slower. When it is the opposite the tempos are much faster and most of the white people cant keep up, which is an indication that they arent used to that kind of tempo. (drawing a conclusion there)

Peter Loggins, Lance Benishek, Lennart Westerlund and Terry Monahan

You should read Jazz Dance, even though it has some innaccuracies, it is a GREAT book.