How to bring more live music into the scene?

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julius · #16 Post by **julius** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:53 pm

NYC has cabaret laws that alter the equation. You literally are not allowed to dance in most venues.

As usual the biggest thing that influences whether dancers go somewhere or not is whether their friends/other dancers go, as Mity points out. The solution is to call up all your friends and MAKE them go out with you! Even better is if you and three friends are the only ones who show up (likely) and you can show off for the non-dancing audience. (Of course, this depends on whether you want to show off or not ... another issue entirely.)

It's a shame Luci's isn't better attended. The night I went when people organized and went en masse was AWESOME.

gatorgal · #17 Post by **gatorgal** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:17 pm

BryanC wrote:
Travis wrote:It's a two-way street. The venue Brenda mentioned is not dancer-friendly in that there is little space to dance, the floor isn't great, and, unless you're totally clueless, you should order food or a drink.
Yeah, dancers can be completely clueless and totally cheap.

Or they simply don't have the money.

We've all been there... whether you're a college student on a fixed income, working 6 or 7 jobs or just inbetween paychecks, we've all be stuck with no cash.

I know here in South Florida, we have a good deal of college students (or young people in general) in our scene. Like many other scenes, we have a good deal of struggling musicians, actors and other artists. A good deal of these of these dancers can only just pay for the cover or admission. Lots of people see them either buying water, splitting a pitcher of water or eating the snacks and they assume that they're being cheap. They're not. Let's not assume.

Sorry about the rant, but that is one of my very big pet peeves.
Tina

mousethief · #18 Post by **mousethief** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:28 pm

Well, the flip side is that it doesn't matter why the money is not flowing but rather that it is not. Club owners manage to make loads of cash off of college students in other venues but swing dancing seems to attract a thriftier crowd.

I know from hard times. I also know that $5 here or there is a big difference. I can also state that being a lazy slob no-paying dancer type gets us squat for venues or bands. Tipping the bartender doesn't do shit for a club's bottom line. Try telling the bank officer that you are going to miss your loan payment but your staff gets great tips.

And it's not limited to students and artsy-types. Here's the reaction of local Dallas dancer (degreed, professional type) on hearing that Django's had a $7 cover -

"WHAT? Then I'm not going."

This is after they had talked it up for a good bit. God forbid the club would want to keep their doors open.

Kalman

mity · #19 Post by **mity** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:57 pm

mousethief wrote: Club owners manage to make loads of cash off of college students in other venues but swing dancing seems to attract a thriftier crowd.

they do it with numbers. there is more demand for club with techno music ( or rock music). thus even when there is no cover, the sheer volume of people willing to spend $5 on the beer will be large. and this will push the bottom line up.

djstarr · #20 Post by **djstarr** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:57 pm

BryanC wrote:I think the better question instead of how to bring live music _into_ a scene is how to get dancers into a live music scene. So many scenes revolve around a venue(s) that is dancer-centric. This means that if dancers want to dance to live music, it's expected that live music is brought _into_ the dancer environment. It's a massive paradigm shift (j/k), but what if dancers went out and brought themselves into their city's live music scene?

I think the musicians want to expand their market - they'd be happy to have a regular gig at a dance, in addition to their gigs at clubs and restaurants. Ham is *very* excited to play at the Century and he hopes to turn it into more than an occasional gig.

And realistically, due to the economic reasons mentioned in this thread, most dancers will not go out consistently to clubs and restaurants to see live music.

But folks who are DJs are presumably trying to improve the scene, so going out with your dance friends to check out bands, and then help get the bands hired at the dance venues is a good thing - for both the majority of dancers who don't go to live venues and to the musicians who want to play more.

mousethief · #21 Post by **mousethief** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:00 pm

mity wrote:
mousethief wrote: Club owners manage to make loads of cash off of college students in other venues but swing dancing seems to attract a thriftier crowd.
they do it with numbers. there is more demand for club with techno music ( or rock music). thus even when there is no cover, the sheer volume of people willing to spend $5 on the beer will be large. and this will push the bottom line up.

Well, then dancers are going to have to cough up. Period.

Kalman

mity · #22 Post by **mity** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:01 pm

here is what i dont understand. why dont the musicians wanna tap the swing dance market.

we are willing to pay something to hear swing music. musicians need gigs. isnt something, which i understand could be less than what a jazz venue would pay them, better than nothing.

i know there are musicians that are looking for gigs. do they contact swing comunity? why do we ( dancers) need to do all the outreach?

mousethief · #23 Post by **mousethief** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:05 pm

On a cool note (pisses me off that I'll be out of town for this), but Dallas will have James Gilyard and company at the dance on the 27th. Arlington Jones and Shelley Carol in the mega-mix, ya'll.

Kalman

Shorty Dave · #24 Post by **Shorty Dave** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:11 pm

DJStarr, what a great story! Thanks for sharing.

Jake wrote:
falty411 wrote:One thing I do want to say about live music. As much as Shorty Dave and I differ as far as what kind of music we like, iI must say I really respect his hard work and diligence in bringing live music to dancers in the New York are.
And, of course, his conspirators Christine, Nicole, Wexie, and the kids at Yehoodi

Well gee, thanks guys for the nice words, but Jake's right on the money. It's really Christine (eannie meanie) and the rest of the crew that does that actual work. I'm just the loud, excited guy jumping up down. LOL.

Seriously, I think that's a big key - making it a real team effort and getting all the "movers and shakers" to come on board. Look at Ray Bryant last Sat for example. Here in NYC, we have Manu, Frankyboy and the rest of Yehoodi which adds so much weight to anything. Columbia Swings flat out cancelled their event and gave us their space. Two of the most popular dance studios held workshops in the Madison to help with promotion. And Jelly Roll itself is a nice conglomerate (Christine the organization genius; Mouth the incredibley accomplished teacher, competitor, dance, and, well, mouth (!); and Wexie who basically knows every dancer in NYC).

Y6A, although it's Yehoodi's Anniversary, will have tons more "political swing parties/factions" involved.

All those people involved do two things: 1) make organizing the actual event not too overwhelming on any one individual and 2) creates a good word-of-mouth buzz in the community

mousethief · #25 Post by **mousethief** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:12 pm

mity wrote:here is what i dont understand. why dont the musicians wanna tap the swing dance market.

we are willing to pay something to hear swing music. musicians need gigs. isnt something, which i understand could be less than what a jazz venue would pay them, better than nothing.

i know there are musicians that are looking for gigs. do they contact swing comunity? why do we ( dancers) need to do all the outreach?

A very good question.

First of all, we're a small scene. Very small and even if we're a good fit, people generally go to their known contacts first.

Second, we're damn, damn picky. We don't hire just anyone and a lot of "swing bands" are tacky Sinatra crooners with a wedding band backing them up.

Third, maybe they don't want to. Swing could be antiquated to them or maybe they want to play free-ranging jazz or less restrictive (?) forms. Maybe they hate dancers. Maybe they got a big bunion and don't like to stand up when they solo.

Anyhoo, beats me.

Kalman

Shorty Dave · #26 Post by **Shorty Dave** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:15 pm

julius wrote: It's a shame Luci's isn't better attended. The night I went when people organized and went en masse was AWESOME.

I don't know if I agree with that in regards to Luci's. In my opinion, the worst thing that could happen to Luci's was if 30+ dancers from "our" swing community regularly attended Luci's. Then Luci's wouldn't be, well, Luci's! (Luci's is a special anamoly, though...)

Shorty Dave · #27 Post by **Shorty Dave** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:21 pm

mity wrote:here is what i dont understand. why dont the musicians wanna tap the swing dance market.

we are willing to pay something to hear swing music. musicians need gigs. isnt something, which i understand could be less than what a jazz venue would pay them, better than nothing.

i know there are musicians that are looking for gigs. do they contact swing comunity? why do we ( dancers) need to do all the outreach?

Ah-ha! That's the $1 million question. How do you get the musicians on board with re-uniting the dance and the music kinda like how it was "back in the day."

My perception is that major hesitation on their end is because they don't know what we're all about. Their perception of swing these days is coming from the Neo-swing and pop culture crap from 3-5 years ago. The trick is, somehow, to get them to come to dance and see for themselves what this is about.

FOR EXAMPLE:

Earl May had so much fun playing with Junior that he called me and asked if his quintet could play sometime. Dave Glasser had so much fun playing in Earl's quintet that he called me and asked if we could host the cd release party for his next gig. The two owners of Chiaroscuro Records (the label for his cd) had so much fun that they want us to do future cd release parties for them. And the ball slowly gets more and more momentum.

BryanC · #28 Post by **BryanC** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:25 pm

gatorgal wrote:Lots of people see them either buying water, splitting a pitcher of water or eating the snacks and they assume that they're being cheap. They're not. Let's not assume.

This probably comes across as asshole-ish, and I'll preface it with the statement that if there's cover, then I don't really think you're obligated to buy anything at all (because it's the cover that's paying for the band and quite possibly some operational costs as well) although it's nice if you do.

If you're strapped for cash, and you're going to a live venue with no cover, don't go if you're not going to buy anything. Seriously. We've all been there where you have the choice of eating or dancing, and no, it's not fun. But when a substantial group of people arrive in a venue, take up a lot of floor and split a pitcher of water (which they ask the waitress to get for them), it reflects poorly on dancers in general. And while it doesn't seem like anyone should care how this reflects on dancers or not, THIS is the primary reason why venue owners and management do not like having dancers in their bars. This practice results in less hiring of dance-friendly bands, changes in music format, and less welcoming for dancers in general, even though the management is making the misapplied assumption that people are being cheap (as opposed to being unable to pay). However, similarly to how tipping doesn't help the owner pay the bills (although it creates goodwill in the venue), the inability to pay due to financial circumstances beyond ones control also does not help the owner pay his/her bills.

Travis · #29 Post by **Travis** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:30 pm

True there are those who just can't afford it and that is unfortunate. My comments were geared more toward those who don't seem to care that they aren't financially contributing to these establishments.

..........................................

At a recent Trad Jazz dance that I attended (along with Gary and Brenda), there were more people there than at some swing dances that I've been to. Most everyone was over the age of 60 but they were up and dancing. Same thing at the Dixieland Jubliee in Seaside a couple of weeks ago (Titan Hot 7 kicked ass, by the way) - I went with two friends and we were the youngest people there by an average margin of about 30 years. I am just finding out that Seattle has a thriving Trad Jazz scene but I fear that once the older generation that loves this music...ummm...expires

, who will be there to support these bands? Furthermore, most of the musicians in these bands are of the same generation so even if an audience were to remain who will be around in 20 years to play this music? Maybe the Swingdj's Forum Band

. By the way I'm trying to learn how to play the clarinet so check with me in...oh, about 3-4 years and I might be ready.

Hey Julius, Joon is learning the drums. We're all coming to your place to jam during NJC!!!

main_stem · #30 Post by **main_stem** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:22 pm

Travis wrote:Maybe the Swingdj's Forum Band . By the way I'm trying to learn how to play the clarinet so check with me in...oh, about 3-4 years and I might be ready.

Hey Julius, Joon is learning the drums. We're all coming to your place to jam during NJC!!!

Well I can break out my alto and clarinet and see if i can remember anything on them.