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Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 1:15 am
by SirScratchAlot
Ron wrote:The bitching and moaning I think he's referring to is the constant broken-record "you aren't dancing Lindy Hop", and "why don't you play some Lindy Hop music?" postings all over the net.
SirScratchAlot wrote:the reason I play Mora more, is because I tend to DJ lindy Hop events.... :D
This latest round of discussion started because of the above statement, which I still find pretty insulting. Peter, even if you say you enjoy it all, don't you understand how we think this might be insulting?
NO, it started because someone started this thread.....

here in Los Angeles when we have a Lindy Hop event , dancers expect music that is "known" to be for Lindy Hopping. so thats the music I play. to keep them happy and comin back.

Barbara is a blast to dance too, I've seen her countless times here as well as in Europe , But it's not "know as" Lindy hop music. It's jazz that swings, and I consider atleast what I do to it mostly as swing dancing... that doesn't mean no one can Lindy Hop to it.



If you are insulted by my answer to the question you asked on this thread, which I might add is based off the fact I acually put on Events, thats your problem and nobody elses...

since I've been open and honest with you and have told you what I base my opinions off, what is it you do to know what dancers want? and how many times have dancers constantly complained on swingorama?

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 2:15 am
by SirScratchAlot
SpuzBal wrote:Warning: Generalizations ahead.

"Group A" are complaining because:

1) They don't hear enough of the music that they want to hear.
2) They feel that a term (or terms) is (are) being misappropriated.

"Group B" complain because:

1) Group A complain about not hearing enough of the music they want to hear.
2) Group B feels that (a) certain term(s) should be more inclusive.
My generalization is that some DJ's are taking it personal when they get so many complaints.

another generalization is the dancing ability strongly reflects the Djing ability...I don't know why that is, but it is becoming apparent.

some Dj's can take Criticing without taking it personal, others remain to suck, and no matter how many complaints they get , nothing changes.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 10:46 am
by Ron
Peter, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree whether Barbara Morrison plays Lindy Hop music, etc. I do appreciate your opinions on here, I've always thought you have a reasoned, respectful approach to your postings and I know you like and dance to all types of music.
SirScratchAlot wrote:since I've been open and honest with you and have told you what I base my opinions off, what is it you do to know what dancers want? and how many times have dancers constantly complained on swingorama?
When I DJ I choose songs based on what the crowd responds to, among other things, and the floor seems to be fuller and happier with Barbara Morrison than with Moras, at least here in San Diego. So I play more Morrison, but I do play some Moras. Our local forum on Swingorama is often dominated by a vocal minority that "bitches and whines" about my djing and would probably prefer more Moras and similar style music. That they are a minority has been proven recently based on the large backlash against Meeshi's music format change at the firehouse.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 10:59 am
by Mr Awesomer
Ron wrote:Our local forum on Swingorama is often dominated by a vocal minority that "bitches and whines" about my djing and would probably prefer more Moras and similar style music. That they are a minority has been proven recently based on the large backlash against Meeshi's music format change at the firehouse.
Proof of one of my points earlier in this thread, though it's funny you describe the vocal minority as "bitch[ing] and whin[ing] about my djing" but describe the group you side with as a "backlash against Meeshi's music format change."

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 11:41 am
by Ron
Yes, the interesting thing is that the backlash, as near I could tell, was more people voting with their feet and staying away, or talking to Meeshi directly, rather than people posting on the forum.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 11:42 am
by Mr Awesomer
Ron wrote:Yes, the interesting thing is that the backlash, as near I could tell, was more people voting with their feet and staying away, or talking to Meeshi directly, rather than people posting on the forum.
No matter how you cut it, it's all about bitching and whining.

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:03 pm
by yedancer
Ron wrote:Yes, the interesting thing is that the backlash, as near I could tell, was more people voting with their feet and staying away, or talking to Meeshi directly, rather than people posting on the forum.
Ron, what did you expect when we tried to make people listen and dance to what was essentially unfamiliar music? Considering that you were San Diego's most influential DJ for a long time, and that most of the other DJs' styles were similar to yours, it's no wonder a lot people want to hear what you play: people usually are most comfortable with what they are familiar with.

What you have neglected to mention is that people's tastes have changed in San Diego, thanks the efforts of myself and Meeshi. Just a few months ago, most people would not dance to faster, older music. Now, people will definitely dance to it. They'll even dance to a few in a row. True, they don't want to hear that sort of music exclusively, but they now have a taste for it. They wouldn't, if Meeshi and I hadn't taken a chance. At least now people in San Diego will tolerate non-groove music for more than 1 or 2 songs per hour. If the price was a little pride on Meeshi's part, and low attendance at the Firehouse for a while, then it was worth it.

I think DJs in other cities should note that while it's difficult to change the taste of a regular crowd, it is possible. As long as you are willing to take the risk of being looked down upon by some people in your community.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Wed May 21, 2003 11:57 pm
by SirScratchAlot
Ron wrote: When I DJ I choose songs based on what the crowd responds to, among other things, and the floor seems to be fuller and happier with Barbara Morrison than with Moras, at least here in San Diego. So I play more Morrison, but I do play some Moras. Our local forum on Swingorama is often dominated by a vocal minority that "bitches and whines" about my djing
minority , Majority, whatever ,Look your in denial, dancers from SD have been talking about you for years, the fact people have been "bitching and whining" about any DJ for as long as they have about you, man you should change something....and it has nothing to do with new vs Old.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Thu May 22, 2003 12:06 am
by SirScratchAlot
Ron wrote:Peter, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree whether Barbara Morrison plays Lindy Hop music, etc.
thats fine, but how about explain to me what credibility you have? so that I may learn from you and understand where your opinion comes from. You could Perhaps even change my mind. I'm alwasy willing to be corrected...

are you someone that studies history , or are you an expert at Lindy Hop, or are you a Musician? possibly an arranger/writer that can explain the differences between these forms of music? what do you base your opinions off....?

Posted: Thu May 22, 2003 8:14 am
by Swifty
SpuzBal wrote:Warning: Generalizations ahead.

"Group A" are complaining because:

1) They don't hear enough of the music that they want to hear.
2) They feel that a term (or terms) is (are) being misappropriated.

"Group B" complain because:

1) Group A complain about not hearing enough of the music they want to hear.
2) Group B feels that (a) certain term(s) should be more inclusive.

*Devil's advocate*

My perspective: Popular usage dictates what any word means. A dictionary describes how a word is used, not how to use it correctly. While some people will lament semantic drift (myself included), it's useless to try to stop it. Look at L'Academie fran├žaise - they want everyone to say "le stationnement de voitures," but practically everyone in France has already started saying "le parking." And anybody who thinks that L'Academie fran├žaise has even the beginnings of enough power to counteract a shift in semantics is nuts (no offense).

To the joy of some and, surely, the chagrin of others, if you ask me, "Lindy hop" no longer means "a vernacular partner dance from the first half of the 20th century that evolved from the Charleston" or however one wishes to define it, because the majority of people don't use the term that way. From a linguistic perspective, it's become a much more inclusive term, due to the change in popular usage. Not saying whether this is good or bad (I've certainly got my own opinion); I'm just observing.
A hypothetical question:

What if, instead of asking people dancing 8-count-Lindy Hop-derived patterns to Barbara Morrison to change the name of their dance to "New Testament Lindy" or "Wiggly Hop," we asked people dancing 8-count-Charleston-derived patterns to Chick Webb to start calling their dance "Traditional Lindy Hop" or something similar?

PS: There is no genre of music (or sub-genre of jazz) called "Lindy Hop," the use of the term as such drives me insane.

Posted: Thu May 22, 2003 4:13 pm
by KevinSchaper
Swifty wrote: What if, instead of asking people dancing 8-count-Lindy Hop-derived patterns to Barbara Morrison to change the name of their dance to "New Testament Lindy" or "Wiggly Hop," we asked people dancing 8-count-Charleston-derived patterns to Chick Webb to start calling their dance "Traditional Lindy Hop" or something similar?
Isn't that already the status quo?

as it is now, what you're suggesting be called "Traditional Lindy Hop" already has to have similar modifiers attached to it, like "Old Skool", "Harlem" etc., for people to understand that it's what you're referring to, or to advertise an event.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Thu May 22, 2003 5:37 pm
by Ron
SirScratchAlot wrote:
Ron wrote:Peter, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree whether Barbara Morrison plays Lindy Hop music, etc.
thats fine, but how about explain to me what credibility you have? so that I may learn from you and understand where your opinion comes from. You could Perhaps even change my mind. I'm alwasy willing to be corrected...

are you someone that studies history , or are you an expert at Lindy Hop, or are you a Musician? possibly an arranger/writer that can explain the differences between these forms of music? what do you base your opinions off....?
Peter, you just don't want to let this drop, do you? Obviously I can't compete with your knowledge of the history of the dance. I just think the dance I do looks more like Lindy Hop than say, Foxtrot or Waltz or West Coast Swing, so I'm pretty happy to call it Lindy Hop, and so are most people. I'm not into narrow definitions of "what is Lindy Hop" and "what is Lindy Hop music". I don't find them useful.

What if you walked up to a few guys on a street basketball court who were shooting some hoops and listening to some rock on their boombox. Would you say to them that what they were doing wasn't basketball because they didn't have the proper lines drawn on the court and they didn't move like the original basketball players did? Maybe you'd even say 3-pt shots aren't Basketball. And would you say their music wasn't Rock because Pearl Jam doesn't sound anything like the Beatles or the Stones? And if you then invited them to come over to your court and see how Basketball is really played, and listen to some real Rock, I think you'd get a pretty negative response.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Thu May 22, 2003 5:48 pm
by Lawrence
Ron wrote:What if you walked up to a few guys on a street basketball court who were shooting some hoops and listening to some rock on their boombox. Would you say to them that what they were doing wasn't basketball because they didn't have the proper lines drawn on the court and they didn't move like the original basketball players did? Maybe you'd even say 3-pt shots aren't Basketball. And would you say their music wasn't Rock because Pearl Jam doesn't sound anything like the Beatles or the Stones? And if you then invited them to come over to your court and see how Basketball is really played, and listen to some real Rock, I think you'd get a pretty negative response.
Although I completely agree with the analogy and the point he's making, it definitely reveals that Ron has not gone out to play some pick-up in a LONG time. :lol: ... "Yo, yo, yo, homie, put on da... Pearl Jam?!?!?" :? :lol:

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 12:16 am
by Mr Awesomer
Ron wrote:What if you walked up to a few guys on a street basketball court who were shooting some hoops and listening to some rock on their boombox. Would you say to them that what they were doing wasn't basketball because they didn't have the proper lines drawn on the court and they didn't move like the original basketball players did? Maybe you'd even say 3-pt shots aren't Basketball. And would you say their music wasn't Rock because Pearl Jam doesn't sound anything like the Beatles or the Stones? And if you then invited them to come over to your court and see how Basketball is really played, and listen to some real Rock, I think you'd get a pretty negative response.
As someone who used to play street ball back in my younger days I know you'd be the one who'd get his ass kicked before you'd even get close enough to ask such questions so why are you even trying to make such comparisons? Seriously dude, stick to your engineering or whatever the hell it is you do.

Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Posted: Fri May 23, 2003 4:35 am
by SirScratchAlot
Ron wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:
Ron wrote:Peter, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree whether Barbara Morrison plays Lindy Hop music, etc.
thats fine, but how about explain to me what credibility you have? so that I may learn from you and understand where your opinion comes from. You could Perhaps even change my mind. I'm alwasy willing to be corrected...

are you someone that studies history , or are you an expert at Lindy Hop, or are you a Musician? possibly an arranger/writer that can explain the differences between these forms of music? what do you base your opinions off....?
Peter, you just don't want to let this drop, do you?
absolutely not, if your going to judge people on the net and preach what Lindy Hop music is, then I'm going to question the credibility of such labeling....

Ron wrote: Obviously I can't compete with your knowledge of the history of the dance.
this has nothing to do with competing, I want to learn like the next person, Up until now for the most part I've only spent time interviewing older dancers who grew up during all these years of the 30's , 40's ,50's etc...I know what they say, I'm curious to know what others say as well...
Ron wrote: I just think the dance I do looks more like Lindy Hop than say, Foxtrot or Waltz or West Coast Swing, so I'm pretty happy to call it Lindy Hop
and so are most people. I'm not into narrow definitions of "what is Lindy Hop" and "what is Lindy Hop music". I don't find them useful.
Thats all I wanted to hear, cool. Now we are getting somewhere. so then If I understand you correctly, and please correct me If I'm wrong, you use the term "Lindy Hop" as an all incompassing term, just as I would use the term "swing dancing" as the all incompassing label?