SwingDJs

SirScratchAlot wrote:If I'm wrong, you use the term "Lindy Hop" as an all incompassing term, just as I would use the term "swing dancing" as the all incompassing label?

Yes, but "Swing Dancing" usually includes Jitterbug/East Coast Swing, too -- which has become distinct enough in its footwork, basic, and mechanics to warrant a different name. It also includes Bal, Bal-Swing, Collegiate Shag, (and so on...) Lindy Hop done to slower music is still Lindy Hop because of its mechanics and timing. I do think, though, that the fire burns the hottest for this dance at faster tempos to Swing Era music.

Peter,

I normally don't get into discussions like this, but I wanted to share a perspective that seems to just be getting some light shed on it now.

Just as you've intensely studied the roots of our dance's history in the 30s/40s by talking with and understanding dancers who were around then, it's also important to study and understand more recent roots of our rich cultural dance. I'm sure many people on this discussion group have seriously studied Lindy Hop for years and years. Depending on where we grew up, we may have vastly different experiences.

I've seen the Lindy Hop scene grow in different directions over the past 7 years of being a part of it. I can't speak for others, but while I understand and appreciate the origins of Lindy Hop, I've watched it change as I've studied extensively under an exceptional generation (or two) of teachers: Ryan Francois & Jenny Thomas, Steven Mitchell & Virginie (and his partners before her), Sylvia Sykes & Jason Christodoulo (Johnathan Bixby before him), Eddie & Eva, many other RHS's, Kenneth & Helena, Bill Borgida (with countless partners), etc...

I've grown up being inspired by amazing comtemporary Lindy Hoppers such as Young Jin and Mary Hamilton and countless others from Chicago, Meeshi from San Diego, Little Greg from Seattle, too many to name from San Franciso, etc... These dancers are all passionate about the Lindy Hop but have obviously taken it in different directions.

I've been inspired by live music by bands like Lavay Smith, George Gee and Peter Davis and DJs like Marc D'Olimpio (hands down the most influential DJ in my past), Riley, Paul Overton, Bill Borgida and Rayned. These wonderful people have all poured out swinging music that has moved me to dance like no others.

Generations of dancers have grown up passionately tied in with the deep-pocket behind-the-beat rhythm of Basie and the swinging music that would come forth from that. The dance became more relaxed and laid-back, but it still retained an intense swinging feeling reflecting the raw essense of Lindy Hop.

If you understand where I'm coming from, then you can understand why it is slightly insulting and offensive being constantly told that the dance I am passionate about is not Lindy Hop and the music I am incredibly passionate about is not suited for Lindy Hop. Barbara Morrison's music SCREAMS Lindy Hop to me, making my entire body want to swing hard. That is the historical perspective that I come from that makes me internally feel like Barbara's music is wonderful and passionate music that goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the dance that I love, Lindy Hop.

I can continue to understand and appreciate more about others' cultural histories, but please don't ask me to give up or devalue mine just because you are passionate about yours (I'm not saying that you are doing that - just asking you and others not to). I'm not trying to claim that everything under the sun in Lindy Hop, but I think most of us in this discussion have a lot more in common than we care to admit.

Jesse

GuruReuben wrote: As someone who used to play street ball back in my younger days I know you'd be the one who'd get his ass kicked before you'd even get close enough to ask such questions so why are you even trying to make such comparisons? Seriously dude, stick to your engineering or whatever the hell it is you do.

you're saying Ron would get beat up, but you won't? why is that?

furthermore, you avoiding his question. not that anyone is surprised.

CafeSavoy wrote: you're saying Ron would get beat up, but you won't? why is that?

.

Didn't you hear? Rueben is black... or at least one *part* of him is

JesseMiner wrote: If you understand where I'm coming from, then you can understand why it is slightly insulting and offensive being constantly told that the dance I am passionate about is not Lindy Hop and the music I am incredibly passionate about is not suited for Lindy Hop. Barbara Morrison's music SCREAMS Lindy Hop to me, making my entire body want to swing hard. That is the historical perspective that I come from that makes me internally feel like Barbara's music is wonderful and passionate music that goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the dance that I love, Lindy Hop.

I can continue to understand and appreciate more about others' cultural histories, but please don't ask me to give up or devalue mine just because you are passionate about yours (I'm not saying that you are doing that - just asking you and others not to). I'm not trying to claim that everything under the sun in Lindy Hop, but I think most of us in this discussion have a lot more in common than we care to admit.

As someone who is clearly proud of being apart of creating history, why do you feel the need keep the Lindy Hop name? West Coasters took on a new name when they moved away from Lindy Hop... just as Lindy Hoppers took on a new name when they moved away from Charleston. It's the next logical step in the evolution of dance to stake out a new name when things have changed enough. Why are so many "contemporary Lindy Hoppers" so opposed to this concept that they feel "insulted" when someone into the preservation and history of that same dance sees it as something different? Personally, I think you are devaluating your own history by clinging to a name of a dance you are obviously and proudly (as you should be) trying to change.

CafeSavoy wrote: you're saying Ron would get beat up, but you won't? why is that?

furthermore, you avoiding his question. not that anyone is surprised.

When I first started playing I didn't get beat up because I showed up to play with people who were already respected. Once I had been playing for a while I didn't get beat up because I had gained respect on my own merits. I don't see Ron as capable of either of these.

His questions have easy answers so I didn't bother repling to them, but since you think I'm avoiding them, here you go:

Question 1: Would you say to them that what they were doing wasn't basketball because they didn't have the proper lines drawn on the court and they didn't move like the original basketball players did?

There are different forms of basketball just as there are different forms of swing dancing. For example, it's easy to draw a foul in regulation basketball. A foul, if at all, in streetball requires blood.

Question 2: And would you say their music wasn't Rock because Pearl Jam doesn't sound anything like the Beatles or the Stones?

There are different types of Rock just as there are different types of swing dancing. For example, you can apply the terms "grunge" or "alternative" to Pearl Jam... but said terms don't apply to the Beatles nor the Stones.

GuruReuben wrote:As someone who is clearly proud of being apart of creating history, why do you feel the need keep the Lindy Hop name? West Coasters took on a new name when they moved away from Lindy Hop... just as Lindy Hoppers took on a new name when they moved away from Charleston. It's the next logical step in the evolution of dance to stake out a new name when things have changed enough. Why are so many "contemporary Lindy Hoppers" so opposed to this concept that they feel "insulted" when someone into the preservation and history of that same dance sees it as something different? Personally, I think you are devaluating your own history by clinging to a name of a dance you are obviously and proudly (as you should be) trying to change.

your case would have more validity if you'd explicitly state the characteristics of the dance you call lindy hop, the characteristics of the dance you call groove, and make a logical case for the disjoint between the two sets. and show that the disjoint is significant enough to justify a new name. also if you give your bona fides that give you the authority to make such definitive statements.

have you run these definitional changes by those whose were pivotal in the lindy hop revival or do you think they aren't real lindy hoppers either.

while you are at it, would you give the characteristics of lindy hop music and a set of criteria we could use to determine if a piece of music is lindy hop music.

in the absence of such criteria, all you are expressing is your personal opinion, which although as valid as anyone's, is no more valid.

so were the charleston dancers in the 20's running around telling lindy hoppers they needed to change their name because they weren't really charleston dancers? was that even an issue?

so what do you guys really want? if everyone agreed that only you and your coterie do real lindy hop, would that make you happy and make you shut up. would you stop going around being a pest and insulting people. would you stop bitching and whining? would that make you divert your efforts into running your own venues and events? or would you start protesting outside dances because no one was coming to yours?


also i don't think charleston dancers were running around telling lindy hoppers they need to change the need of the dance and that they weren't real charleston dancers.

If what I say has no merit, why does it draw so much attention and is seen as insulting?

GuruReuben wrote: just as Lindy Hoppers took on a new name when they moved away from Charleston.

It strikes me that the naming was a little more arbitrary than that.. and that the dance that was being done in '27 (not that I've seen a clip from '27, but '29 at least) under the name Lindy Hop only shares so much with what was being done in '41.

GuruReuben wrote:Why are so many "contemporary Lindy Hoppers" so opposed to this concept that they feel "insulted" when someone into the preservation and history of that same dance sees it as something different?

Personally, I think the time has come where you need to state the specifics for why this new "yet-to-be-named dance" requires its own distinct name. Everyone has their own "style" when it comes to Lindy Hop. Thank god we don't all look alike. I'm not (and I don't think anyone is) for breaking it down so far as to say, "Oh, I dance Reuben Brown style" or "I dance Andy Reid style." What necessitates this classification?

I respect wanting to preserve Lindy Hop in its original form. I also enjoy stretching the rules slightly within the confines of this dance. The differences between ECS and Lindy Hop, WCS and Lindy Hop, Charleston and Lindy Hop, Balboa and Lindy Hop are clear enough to justify having different names. (Whilst ECS and Charleston are subsets of Lindy Hop; they've evolved into their own with their own basic that is different clearly from the basic of Lindy Hop.) Just as there were different styles on Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, different styles at the Savoy Ballroom, different styles across the coutry as the dance spread, there are different styles today. Some did become different enough to warrant their own name change... I don't think that's the case with the way people are dancing to some slower and some "groovier" music.

GuruReuben wrote:If what I say has no merit, why does it draw so much attention and is seen as insulting?

*YAWN!* Huh? what? :-z Is this thread still going?

Lawrence wrote:

GuruReuben wrote:If what I say has no merit, why does it draw so much attention and is seen as insulting?

*YAWN!* Huh? what? :-z Is this thread still going?

Exactly.

scratchy wrote:comparing these two instituations is like comparing Ella's Band during the 30's and Ella during the 50's. (for the most part).

sure we can draw comparisons , but really whats the point, other then the analizing of each artist and then comparing what goes over in what scene?

I love em both.

So how about Barbara Morrison vs. Ernestine Anderson? That's an apple to apple comparison --- I haven't listened to the full Barbara Morrison 9:20 special CD yet, so I can't comment except for what I've heard Dj'ed. Between both their versions of "I love being here with you" I prefer Ernestine.

djstarr wrote: So how about Barbara Morrison vs. Ernestine Anderson? That's an apple to apple comparison --- I haven't listened to the full Barbara Morrison 9:20 special CD yet, so I can't comment except for what I've heard Dj'ed. Between both their versions of "I love being here with you" I prefer Ernestine.

Isn't Ernestine verging on belonging in the "overplayed music" thread? That's all I hear about these days... Seems everyone has been buying/playing Ernestine music a lot lately.

Isn't Ernestine verging on belonging in the "overplayed music" thread? That's all I hear about these days... Seems everyone has been buying/playing Ernestine music a lot lately.

that's because she is so good, but I've already admitted my Ernestine bias.

She's neck and neck with Barbara Morrison up here; a lot of people have the 9:20 special CD and dj it; the three "grooviest" Ernestine tracks (I love being here with you, As Long as I live, Going back to Chicago) get played quite a bit also.

Ignoring the issue of overplayed - do you prefer one over the other?