Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

Everything about the swinging music we love to DJ

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Which band do you play more often when you DJ?

Barbara Morrison
19
53%
Mora's Modern Rhythmists
11
31%
Both about equally
1
3%
I don't play either of them
5
14%
 
Total votes: 36

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SirScratchAlot
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#76 Post by SirScratchAlot » Tue May 20, 2003 4:32 am

CafeSavoy wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:
I know for a fact the real Lindy Hoppers are dance whores and their ... prefrences ... [is] to bitch and whine...
why would you purposefully miss quote me , when I'm making an honest observation. Thats unprofessional and illegal.

I don't attack people personally. if you feel I have done so to you, I apologise.
\\\"Jazz Musicians have dance in them, and Jazz dancers have music in them, or Jazz doesn''''t happen.\\\" Sidney Bechet

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#77 Post by SirScratchAlot » Tue May 20, 2003 4:36 am

Lawrence wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote: I don;t think it is one in the same at all. and the only re-labeling that is being done is by those that want to use the term Lindy Hop to cover anything under the sun that involves an 8 count pattern...
...that manifests (puts into motion) a syncopated Swing Rhythm.
no it doesn't. however, what does that have to do with anything...
\\\"Jazz Musicians have dance in them, and Jazz dancers have music in them, or Jazz doesn''''t happen.\\\" Sidney Bechet

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#78 Post by SirScratchAlot » Tue May 20, 2003 5:29 am

Lawrence wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote: that's good to hear, especially since it seems that some want to drive
away some of those who already consider themselves lindy hoppers.
yes, I don't beleive in seprating the "twits" from the scene...they pay at the door like everyone else...
I completely agree, even though you seem to be ripping on my point of distinguishing "us" from Neo Swing Geeks/twits. :)
well, because we belong to the same scene. and those "twits" are the ones haveing a Ball dancing to whatever comes out of those speakers regardless of what it is. sure your musical taste are more evolved to put it nicely, and you dress normal compared to the guy that goes to a socail dance wearing a Purple zoot, but hey, make friends with the guy instead of dissing him...this discription of "swing twit" means most likely he hasn;t been dancing every long, and hopefully he will be of the ones (like others on this board) that comes around to keep on dancing and not just be one of trend jumpers that disappears cause everyone around him that was good had an ego or whatever...

Lawrence wrote: But, as for marketing, I would much rather target-market non-twits who attract rather than repel women than have a bunch of those extreme-dorks who creep the hell out of all the women I want to come to my dances, leaving us with just the dumb, standardless, oblivious women. (Softball, guys, go ahead and hit it...)
I sat Target everybody, I find it difficult to do a casting call to target a specific person to get into the scene. it reads like "Only cool people allowed" , but damn Look at this scene, it's the most square possible scene out there. White kids from the Burbs...but ya know , they are living it, and keeping it going, hopefully it will someday come back around and be done on a more cultural level. thats wher it is now, back underground, it doesn;t attract the 50 year old doctor from Manhattan beach...oh wait it still does...but only because he can dance to the music he grew up on....again, squares ville, but hey they might discover something I want to preserve and inturn help in some way I couldn;t. god only knows I need money to restore old film prints and archive music/film/photography digitally. So that someday I may be able to share it with everyone.


Then again I could be reading you wrong, what do mean by Targeting? what is it you do to Target or spread the word and what word is it you spread? I guess this could be a whole different topic..sorry.

Lawrence wrote: What your perception of who is doing the alienating ("Groover" or "Originalers") also seems to completely depend on what camp you fall in, not any objective assessment, as it always has.

sure sure, I understand totally. But ya see, I enjoy both camps.
and when I make an observation it pertains to what I've witnessed and heard, not whats going on in DC, or texas or NY.
On a Professional Level I feel I have to defend the historical aspects , this where I'm knowledgible and because like you state the ones that are defending the historical aspects just call names or say stupid stuff. when I see it be either defended inncorrectly by immature people or attacked by immature people I get involved....not only to correct those slingin info around against Groovers used but also sometimes to make their argument historically correct.
Lawrence wrote: It sometimes sounds as if "Original Hollywooders" refuse to try to understand why I have mine and perhaps allow me to share my inspiration,
The Hollywood Jitterbugs is a club of dancers that enjoy dancing with 70+ year olds that danced during the 30's and 40's and could care less about what you like as long as your dancing. It all about dancing for these folks regardless of what ya do, even west coast swing, Lindy, whatever ya got, it's a dance club. But then again, you could be miss using the term. The originals are pretty damn old now.

The "Hollywood stylers" or the "Camp Hollywooders" Ala Marcus and co. where all about the Bill Haley and the Andrew sisters stuff like that..

Then there is the "Hollywood Hornets", a dance team, a once arthur Murray based team , I don;t know there opinions but they dance different styles and forms of music.

"Original Hollywooders" if talking about the swing revival would have to be Eric and Sylvia. They made that term up and invented their own basic and style. see Hollywood stylers for music tastes...they had more followers in DC then here...

There is alot of Hollywood, it's a big place. When I think of Original Hollywooders I think of B-Bop, or Jack McVey, Slim Galliard, Don Byas or Cee Pee Johnson. Certainly Not early Duke, Webb or Charlie Johnson. and as for the dancers, it would be 40's 50's 60's etc...so I think it incompasses your taste as well. next time you feel a "Hollywooder" dissing your taste put em check historically and explain what your playin perhaps IS more hollywood then their taste....

Lawrence wrote: as opposed to just browbeating me into joining them because they say so and they're so "originally" cool. As you and I have always said, Peter, vive la difference! Nobody is going to be able to browbeat the other side out of their preferences.
I couldn't agree more, and beleive me I see it both sides trying to push their coolness. And every city is different.. so comments sometimes get crossed up.

Now that this scene is so mature retaining and preserving the "common" Lindy Hop at Lindy Hop events is even more important then ever. There have been dancers that have come along since this revival who don;t even know who Frankie Manning is and have never heard of Chick Webb yet they tell me "I'm doing the Lindy Hop" which they obviously are not, not because they don't want to , but because they've never seen it. We have all taken this stuff stuff for granted, and I just want to cheer for what the ol folks brought us. I'd like to see more 50's jazz dancing stuff, The B-bop dancing done at the Savoy Ballroom was so damn cool, and I just Love that Music, yea, I know it's not Lindy Hop but why can't we enjoy it all?
Sure , we can develope it into more things, new things and possibly better things but I don't see why it can't be done under the same tent...

again, this is what I see out here. none of this might even pertain to any of you fella's reading the board.
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#79 Post by CafeSavoy » Tue May 20, 2003 10:04 am

SirScratchAlot wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:
I know for a fact the real Lindy Hoppers are dance whores and their ... prefrences ... [is] to bitch and whine...
why would you purposefully miss quote me , when I'm making an honest observation. Thats unprofessional and illegal.

I don't attack people personally. if you feel I have done so to you, I apologise.
it wasn't an attack, just fun with words. if i had called you a twit or a fake lindy hopper then that would have been an attack. and the quote did use ellipsis to show that words were missing. so i doubt it's illegal since only commercial speech is subjected to strict scrutiny.

but i did use the quote to make a point, namely, that you guys "bitch and whine" so much that the substantive portions of your conversation gets lost in all the smoke. which is a shame since you have a lot to offer. it becomes like that Far Side cartoon where regardless of what the owner says the only part the dog hears is his name.

most everyone here is interested in benefitting from you sharing your knowledge of swing era music and dance and their development over time to the present. but most also have little desire to wade through pages and pages of "bitching and whining" for a little substance.

so sorry if you took that post as an attack. here's the cartoon.

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#80 Post by CafeSavoy » Tue May 20, 2003 10:35 am

SirScratchAlot wrote:but hey, make friends with the guy instead of dissing him...
exactly. and the same is true in music too. check out this quote about a Philly Jazz musician:
"Another thing Skip Heller pays attention to is the audience. He doesn't feel the need to stand above them, but among them. He doesn't want the younger crowd to just peek in the jazz door. He wants them to push the door open a bit wider, then realize they're welcome inside." -- R.J. DeLuke
Now that this scene is so mature retaining and preserving the "common" Lindy Hop at Lindy Hop events is even more important then ever. There have been dancers that have come along since this revival who don;t even know who Frankie Manning is and have never heard of Chick Webb yet they tell me "I'm doing the Lindy Hop" which they obviously are not, not because they don't want to , but because they've never seen it. We have all taken this stuff stuff for granted, and I just want to cheer for what the ol folks brought us. I'd like to see more 50's jazz dancing stuff, The B-bop dancing done at the Savoy Ballroom was so damn cool, and I just Love that Music, yea, I know it's not Lindy Hop but why can't we enjoy it all?
Sure , we can develope it into more things, new things and possibly better things but I don't see why it can't be done under the same tent...
Don't think anyone can argue with that either. Unfortunately most don't get the impression that it is a big tent. I personally like the idea of delighting in the different dances and music associated with swing over time. But listening to some posters you get the impression that only the very strait and very narrow is acceptable. But i agree with you that constrasting dances is also important since knowledge requires learning both the similarities and the differences.

For example, i was just going through my meagre Latin collection and what struck me was that the big bands didn't die in the 50's, they all went Latin :-). This one mid-50's Tito Puente recording had 7 trumpets, 6 reeds and flutes, 5 trombones, 5 percussionists, etc. And with arrangers like Mario Bauza who was with Chick Webb you know those bands knew how to swing. But all kinds of other different things were happening in the rhythms too. The other thing that struck me was the number of swing standards they covered.

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#81 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 20, 2003 10:36 am

CafeSavoy wrote:you guys "bitch and whine" so much
No more so than others do... and here you are bitching and whining about people bitching and whining. I see Ron, Greg and Lawrence as constant bitch and whiners, are you referring to them as well in your "you guys."
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Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

#82 Post by Ron » Tue May 20, 2003 11:08 am

The bitching and moaning I think he's referring to is the constant broken-record "you aren't dancing Lindy Hop", and "why don't you play some Lindy Hop music?" postings all over the net.
SirScratchAlot wrote:the reason I play Mora more, is because I tend to DJ lindy Hop events.... :D
This latest round of discussion started because of the above statement, which I still find pretty insulting. Peter, even if you say you enjoy it all, don't you understand how we think this might be insulting?

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#83 Post by Lawrence » Tue May 20, 2003 11:10 am

GuruReuben wrote: No more so than others do... and here you are bitching and whining about people bitching and whining. I see Ron, Greg and Lawrence as constant bitch and whiners, are you referring to them as well in your "you guys."
Bullshit, Rueben. I have tried constantly to respect your opinions, gone out of my way to show that respect, and repeatedly avoided taking your bait to digress into a bitch and whine contest because I know I am completely outmatched by you in such a contest. :P
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Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

#84 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 20, 2003 11:21 am

Ron wrote:The bitching and moaning I think he's referring to is the constant broken-record "you aren't dancing Lindy Hop", and "why don't you play some Lindy Hop music?" postings all over the net.
SirScratchAlot wrote:the reason I play Mora more, is because I tend to DJ lindy Hop events.... :D
This latest round of discussion started because of the above statement, which I still find pretty insulting. Peter, even if you say you enjoy it all, don't you understand how we think this might be insulting?
People find calling a lot of the music you play "Lindy Hop" music just as insulting. Can you not understand this concept... it's the same as yours only reversed. And if more of the music these broken record people wanted was played their record would stop, then we would hear a different broken record from the people wanting the music that is currently in the majority. It's a double edged sword.
Last edited by Mr Awesomer on Tue May 20, 2003 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#85 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue May 20, 2003 11:23 am

Lawrence wrote:Bullshit, Rueben. I have tried constantly to respect your opinions, gone out of my way to show that respect, and repeatedly avoided taking your bait to digress into a bitch and whine contest because I know I am completely outmatched by you in such a contest. :P
In general my perception is that you like to bitch and whine about things just like everyone else does. It has nothing to do with specific bitching and whining towards me.
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Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

#86 Post by Lawrence » Tue May 20, 2003 11:26 am

Ron wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:the reason I play Mora more, is because I tend to DJ lindy Hop events.... :D
This latest round of discussion started because of the above statement, which I still find pretty insulting. Peter, even if you say you enjoy it all, don't you understand how we think this might be insulting?
We all know Peter's flippancy, Ron. Frankly, I take that quoted comment (at least in isolation) as just fun ribbing. But it does refelct a rather redundent closed-mindedness that "they" should know will only come off as browbeating, which I don't see coming from the other side, if only because, if it does exist, I don't notice it as much because I agree with it.

Then again, perhaps we should just show tolerance and compassion. Their ire again seems to reflect that fact that they see themselves losing the battle against the silent majority, again, as they did over the Hollywood/Savoy debate, so they don't want to go down without a struggle: the cornered dog mentality. :lol:

I wonder what John Cooper's opinion on this would be? :twisted:
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#87 Post by SpuzBal » Tue May 20, 2003 12:19 pm

Warning: Generalizations ahead.

"Group A" are complaining because:

1) They don't hear enough of the music that they want to hear.
2) They feel that a term (or terms) is (are) being misappropriated.

"Group B" complain because:

1) Group A complain about not hearing enough of the music they want to hear.
2) Group B feels that (a) certain term(s) should be more inclusive.

*Devil's advocate*

My perspective: Popular usage dictates what any word means. A dictionary describes how a word is used, not how to use it correctly. While some people will lament semantic drift (myself included), it's useless to try to stop it. Look at L'Academie française - they want everyone to say "le stationnement de voitures," but practically everyone in France has already started saying "le parking." And anybody who thinks that L'Academie française has even the beginnings of enough power to counteract a shift in semantics is nuts (no offense).

To the joy of some and, surely, the chagrin of others, if you ask me, "Lindy hop" no longer means "a vernacular partner dance from the first half of the 20th century that evolved from the Charleston" or however one wishes to define it, because the majority of people don't use the term that way. From a linguistic perspective, it's become a much more inclusive term, due to the change in popular usage. Not saying whether this is good or bad (I've certainly got my own opinion); I'm just observing.

This sort of goes back to the concept of etymological fallacy, which basically refers to the act of erroneously believing that a word's original meaning will always be the "correct" one. The counter to the etymological fallacy is, again, that popular usage dictates a word's meaning.

Now, as for how much "'Group A' music" or whatever you want to call it should be played, here are three possibilities I see:

1) Play more "'Group A' music" and see Group A stop complaining. Group B then starts complaining about the overabuncance of "'Group A' music."

2) Play the same amount of "'Group B' music" and see Group A continue to complain.

3) Find the right balance (easier said than done, heh).

Of course, I could very well be completely full of it, as well as a total nerd for trying to be so academic about something that's supposed to be fun, heh.
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#88 Post by Lawrence » Tue May 20, 2003 12:27 pm

GuruReuben wrote: In general my perception is that you like to bitch and whine about things just like everyone else does. It has nothing to do with specific bitching and whining towards me.
To clarify, I take "bitch and whine" to mean making generally pointless and endless (even redundant) complaints that do not further a debate or discussion, but instead amount to verbal pouting. I do not interpret "bitch and whine" to be synonymous with "voice or defend his opinions with conviction." Moreover, you (Reuben) do not exclusively bitch and whine, which is why I do respect your opinions and appreciate your illuminating my ignornace on certain things.
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Re: Mora's Modern Rhythmists versus Barbara Morrison

#89 Post by yedancer » Tue May 20, 2003 2:09 pm

Ron wrote:The bitching and moaning I think he's referring to is the constant broken-record "you aren't dancing Lindy Hop", and "why don't you play some Lindy Hop music?" postings all over the net.
You have to admit, Ron, that you've bitched and moaned a lot about "poor quality lo-fi recordings."
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It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

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#90 Post by SirScratchAlot » Wed May 21, 2003 12:53 am

CafeSavoy wrote:
SirScratchAlot wrote:
CafeSavoy wrote:
why would you purposefully miss quote me , when I'm making an honest observation. Thats unprofessional and illegal.

I don't attack people personally. if you feel I have done so to you, I apologise.
it wasn't an attack, just fun with words. if i had called you a twit or a fake lindy hopper then that would have been an attack. and the quote did use ellipsis to show that words were missing. so i doubt it's illegal since only commercial speech is subjected to strict scrutiny.
I didn;t say you attacked me, I asked why would you purposfully Miss Quote me? and yes it is illegal, your post put words in my mouth which I did not do. if you would have added some type of injectory hint of teasing,laughter to show the "fun" use of words then it might not be taking as serious. As it is Now it looks as though I said: "real Lindy Hoppers"( Frankie or those that follow his ideals)...Just Bitch and wine...

I wouldn;t mind the name calling like Fake Lindy Hopper , or Twit bit cause it would fun to throw on a Purple zoot and out fake the whole room....Atleast with names people can read and see who is saying what, and inturn the victim could visually,vocally or physically defend theirselves.
CafeSavoy wrote: but i did use the quote to make a point, namely, that you guys "bitch and whine" so much that the substantive portions of your conversation gets lost in all the smoke.
who is you guys? where did I " Bitch OR whine" ??? or am I the official defender of tradtional Jazz and dance? If so ..whatever I see your the point. But go read Yehoodi and see who is doing all the bitching and whining...it seems pretty obvious most the bitching I see is either it's too fast,Too Old, too muddy bla bla bla...I'll put the link up for you if you want,unless you remember the thread Curls started.

I know and agree that Lindy Hoppers and Groovers all complain and yes, I see Bitching and whining on both sides, but don't you think those that are just "common" Lindy Hoppers have a right to voice their dissapointment to music that is not asscociated to the dance when they paying at the door to get into a Lindy Hop advertised event? or is it just the way it's done?
Last edited by SirScratchAlot on Wed May 21, 2003 2:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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