ECS/Lindy/WCS - Bridging the Gap

[swinginstyle]

First, I'd like to say I'm new to this board and what I'm asking may be redundant, so please be patient and just point me in the right direction. I'm just getting into the whole djing bit and trying to expand my music. One of my goals, being that I'm from Kansas City (ECS dancers in the closet as kitkat admitted), is to bridge the gap between ECS and lindy through music. Being that my background is strong ECS I thoroughly enjoyed the hard hitting songs, the speed, and the aerials. Thanks to several events and a freak injury, I have come to realize what lindy has to offer through the dance and it's variety of music. My goal is to build the lindy hop base in Kansas City, but there are some roadblocks.

The main one is the music. KC likes neo-swing, but it's rarely played outside KC. I would like to know what are some fast songs that swing. I'd also like to realize what bands djs consider neo-swing and perhaps some reasoning. For example (since I've read a few posts), why do some djs abhor Indigo Swing and Jive Aces? How have some djs attempted to bridge the gap in their own scenes?

WCS: I'm an avid WCS dancer and was curious what songs cross over from lindy into wcs and vice versa. What songs are capable of satisfying both crowds (to a certain degree) besides Wade in the Water?

Any other advice/opinions people have would be great.

[kitkat]

Freak injuries happen in lindy, too.

[Drew]

my thoughts on neo and its overestimated necessity can be found at the bottom of this page.

When I think of neo-swing I think of the slew of bands in the mid-late 1990s that followed in the wake of Royal Crown Revue and the Brian Setzer Orchestra. Essentially it is ska in a different and much more kitschy package, or rock with horns once again in a very kitschy package.

It isn't played with the sensibilities or complexities of the jazz that it is a carricature of.

It adheres to the adage of "if you can't make it good, make it loud."

It doesn't swing.

[djstarr]

I would like to know what are some fast songs that swing.

Good luck! Although we've talked about fast music in a variety of places on the forum, here's a link to one specific topic: Fast Dance Songs

I've found that older fast songs work well for both ECS and fast lindy; it takes a while to build up fast lindy skills though, so if there isn't already folks doing lindy hop in Kansas City, this may not work out so well - I'm not an instructor however, so I'll let others cover that point.

[mousethief]

I would say that you can avoid most of the Neo-Swing cliches by just using the truel talents that they were copying in the first place.

Big Joe Turner
Jimmy Rushing -> Count Basie
Louis Prima
Louis Jordan
Louis Armstrong
Frank Sinatra
Lou Rawls -> just listing, I would avoid that trap for now

For newer stuff...

Lavay Smith
Mora's Modern
Joe Jackson
Swing Session
Mighty Blue Kings
Blues Jumpers

Build up a strong set of vocalists, which are always recognizable, and begin to build your sets around them, working in new music as you discover it. Bring in out-of-town instructors who use new(er) music in their lessons. Encourage your better dancers to travel and learn about other scenes.

If they want to hear Sing, Sing, Sing, play the longest version you have, run down to Taco Bell, come back, have a drink and then pick the next song.

I really recommend outside instruction. If your scene hits a glass ceiling in dance ability, no change to the music will help you. You will need danceing role models, both locally and abroad if you want to push the envelope.

And above all else, don't be forced into buying something you hate just to appease 5-6 dancers. They can buy it if they want.

Kalman

[swinginstyle]

my thoughts on neo and its overestimated necessity can be found at the bottom of this page.

When I think of neo-swing I think of the slew of bands in the mid-late 1990s that followed in the wake of Royal Crown Revue and the Brian Setzer Orchestra. Essentially it is ska in a different and much more kitschy package, or rock with horns once again in a very kitschy package.

It isn't played with the sensibilities or complexities of the jazz that it is a carricature of.

It adheres to the adage of "if you can't make it good, make it loud."

It doesn't swing.

Well, I understand what makes music swings now. Fortunately, my dancer/musician friend explained in detail so I understood. And I've gone through most of that thread you linked. So, would you say that most djs try to stay away from bands from that era or just the music that seems more rock/ska based?

[Yakov]

answer to that is every DJ does his own thing. some DJs are hardcore "old-skool" fans and never play anything recorded after 1945. most DJs mix it up between eras. There are definitely plenty of bands today who play swing well, but we don't call them "neo" -- usually "neo" is meant as an insult.

if you want to learn about swing records, I recommend getting the book SWING by Scott Yanow. It's a book of reviews of recordings. Last I checked you could get it for $3 on Amazon.com. The nice thing about that book is it reviews swing music, on its own terms, from the 20's through the milennium. It's not a book for jazz critics or nostalgists, just swing lovers.

for recordings, i recommend getting friendly with Proper Records. their Proper Boxes are 4-disc sets with books that tell you everything. I recommend "The Count Basie Story," "Jivin' With Jordan," "The Lionel Hampton Story," and "Laughing in Rhythm" (the proper box, not the Verve single CD) (although the Verve CD is good too) to start. They retail for ~$20-22. (note that they're not listed in the SWING book.)

or you can get that 40-disc import set of old swing from amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... B000028C29
great, cheap way to get started.

You can bring in old music under the premise of a little local pride. You probably know that some of the best swing dance music ever played is from Kansas City. Count Basie is the biggest name; there are tons of smaller ones. Maybe you want to read up on that and get CDs accordingly.

Also, find an instructor who's good at teaching lindy. Maybe the beginner lessons before each dance can have some lindy elements to them, even if it's still six-count.

Good luck!

-Yakov.

[kitkat]

I have to second Yak0v's recommendation.

The three best purchases I've made in my swing life, if not because of their own awesomeness then because of the way they affected my future are:
-My sueded shoes
-This box set
-A trip to Herrang Dance Camp

[mity]

does anyt one have this one?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... e&st=music

[Greg Avakian]

I think some excellent suggestions have been made, but I want to add that if your motivation is to encourage ECS dancers to do more Lindy, then I might suggest a different way of going about it.

I think that if you change the music from neo swing/jump blues to classic swing/jump blues, you won't see many changes in the way people dance.

I think the Lindy movement on the east coast came about by means of slowly moving toward slower music that was radically different from the neo-swing and classic swing that was being played in clubs by bands and DJs at the time. Having lived through the experience as a DJ, I can tell you that most DJs here followed the recomendations of Bill Borgida, Jesse Miner and Paul Overton.

Having regular exposure to Rayned Wiles and Jesse Miner has helped me tremendously to broaden my tastes and also encouraged me to go out on my own to find lots of great music.

Good places to start looking for CDs are here:

http://paulandsharon.com/the_list.html -An alphabetized listing (by artist)of songs, artists and CDs

http://www.swingorama.com/music/celebpicks.html -Some CD picks by swing DJs

http://lindygroove.com/djs.htm -10 fav CDs by various DJs.

I am not suggesting you switch your format. I am suggesting that if you hear some of this music and you like it, that you will encourage some people when you play it.. But make changes gradually.

The bottom line is that you should play music that people enjoy; you won't change peoples' minds by shoving anything down their throats.


As for WCS: I'd like to suggest shuffle rhythms around 100-120 beats per minute are great. Plus they don't contrast as sharply as other music that you might play (the way westie-pop will). I like Greg Piccolo, Etta Jones, Taj Mahal, Lou Rawls, Joe Liggins ...

[kitkat]

Good point, Greg:

Kenny--are you asking how to convert people to lindy or how to make lindy hoppers & east coasters happy while at the same venue?

[yedancer]

if your motivation is to encourage ECS dancers to do more Lindy, then I might suggest a different way of going about it.

I would suggest that a format change would not do anything to make people switch from ECS to Lindy. The only thing that will get ECS dancers to do Lindy Hop is to see some really good Lindy Hoppers busting out. If they like it enough, they will start to take classes, and hopefully go from there. Nothing the DJ does will encourage ECS dancers to learn Lindy, unless what they play inspires really good Lindy Hoppers to shine on the dance floor.

I think the Lindy movement on the east coast came about by means of slowly moving toward slower music that was radically different from the neo-swing and classic swing that was being played in clubs by bands and DJs at the time. Having lived through the experience as a DJ, I can tell you that most DJs here followed the recomendations of Bill Borgida, Jesse Miner and Paul Overton.

Holy crap. You've got to be kidding me. I completely disagree. There's no way playing slower music is going to make people want to learn Lindy Hop. ECS dancers like fast high-energy music. Make them listen to Lou Rawls and Etta Jones and they will just get bored and never come back to the venue.

Even if you don't like to admit it, it's because of bands like Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and Brian Sezter that Lindy Hop came back. Bill Borgida, Jesse Miner and Paul Overton were preaching to the choir when their style of DJing began to rise in popularity; people were already doing Lindy Hop when the slower music began to take over.

I think that playing slower jazzy stuff will do nothing to encourage Lindy Hop. If anything, it will have the opposite effect. You can see evidence of this just by looking around at the local and national scenes. DJs everywhere have a style influenced by Bill, Jesse, and Paul, and look at the result. Are there tons of new Lindy Hoppers everywhere? Are ECS dancers turning into Lindy Hoppers all over the place? Not by any means. Instead, WCS and Lindy Hop seem to become more and more similar ever year, while ECS dancers go to places where they can actually have fun, like rockabilly clubs.

I'm not pasing judgement or anything, I'm just saying that if one has a goal of creating more Lindy Hoppers out of ECS dancers, playing slower music is not the way to do it. That is my opinion.

[Nate Dogg]

I think that playing slower jazzy stuff will do nothing to encourage Lindy Hop. If anything, it will have the opposite effect. You can see evidence of this just by looking around at the local and national scenes. DJs everywhere have a style influenced by Bill, Jesse, and Paul, and look at the result. Are there tons of new Lindy Hoppers everywhere? Are ECS dancers turning into Lindy Hoppers all over the place? Not by any means. Instead, WCS and Lindy Hop seem to become more and more similar ever year, while ECS dancers go to places where they can actually have fun, like rockabilly clubs.

I'm not pasing judgement or anything, I'm just saying that if one has a goal of creating more Lindy Hoppers out of ECS dancers, playing slower music is not the way to do it. That is my opinion.

I think it really depends where you are. I don't think your comments are representative of every scene or even the country as whole. They probably do reflect what you have seen lately in your town and other cities you have visited. We have plenty of ECS/six count dancers who turn into Lindy dancers in Austin. Ditto for other cities.

Back to the thread's main topic, I feel that it is important to have teachers available to teach lindy hop. A DJ alone can't make it happen. Teachers have a huge impact on how "lindy" is viewed in a particular geographic area. If newer dancers see a lot of faster, smoother style lindy, they are likely to gravitate to that.

One reason slow music is popular is that dancers are taught Lindy to slow music. When Stephen Mitchell passes through town these days, he plays that 130 BPM Ella Fitzgerald version of "Bill Bailey." If the song is good enough for class, it is good enough for the real world. The workshop reinforces that 130 is adequate lindy hop tempo.

In general, local and national teachers have much greater impact than "inspirational" dancers or DJs (although they still have plenty of influence).

Hence, an inspirational dancer who teaches and DJs can be a force, if he or she can get develop a following.

Nathan

[Roy]

Please, ella's version of Bill Bailey is not 130, it's more like 160.

[Nate Dogg]

Please, ella's version of Bill Bailey is not 130, it's more like 160.

You are probably right, typo on my part. As I think about it, I am pretty sure you are right. I was probably getting it mixed up with the Sam Cooke version, which is slower (and he also that version a little bit).

My point is the same though. The tempos/style that teachers teach set an example for the rest of the dancers in social situations.