ECS/Lindy/WCS - Bridging the Gap

[mousethief]

God, don't start playing jazz trios in some attempt to alter the scene; you'll kill the scene. KC is very new but still has a phenomenal music scene, if I recall.

Here's an idea, find a local band that's very danceable and very popular and have them make some recommendations. Have them come by a dance or sit with some dancers - who might have to buy some drinks, god forbid - and just talk about music. That might open up some avenues. At the very least, it might build a good relationship with some musicians.

Playing slower music is the wrong, wrong answer. You're hearing that from established scenes that were years in the making. Go find some cheap instructors and start branding your scene. Get some buy-in from your local peeps and start up a dance team or something.

Use your local resources and then add flavor from outside. A new scene needs energy more than anything and you don't get that as a non-lindy hopper from a post-war jazz trio.

Kalman

[funkyfreak]

An inspirational dancer who teaches and DJs can be a force, if he or she can get develop a following.

I agree with this part of your post. The instructors are perhaps one of the largest influences, although alone they can't 'change' a general scene. A respected teacher who also DJs, or has like-minded Bands/DJs, can do a lot for perceptions. Along with that, as yedancer pointed out, having role models on the dance floor is huge, huge, huge, possibly even more than teachers.

One reason slow music is popular is that dancers are taught Lindy to slow music. The workshop reinforces that 130 is adequate lindy hop tempo.

I don't see the reasoning behind these sentences. Why isn't it that workshops 'reinforce' that 130 is adequate tempo to PRACTICE Lindy Hop at, and dancing Lindy Hop is best at a variety of tempos?

How many slow-ass pianists would the world have today if your post were true? We'd be listening to 'Mary Had a Little Lamb' over and over and over again.

-FF

[Nate Dogg]

One reason slow music is popular is that dancers are taught Lindy to slow music. The workshop reinforces that 130 is adequate lindy hop tempo.

I don't see the reasoning behind these sentences. Why isn't it that workshops 'reinforce' that 130 is adequate tempo to PRACTICE Lindy Hop at, and dancing Lindy Hop is best at a variety of tempos?

How many slow-ass pianists would the world have today if your post were true? We'd be listening to 'Mary Had a Little Lamb' over and over and over again.

-FF

First, the BPM was off on my example, as Roy noted. But, I don't see too much disagreement between us, just a matter of wording and how we interpret the words. I don't disagree with what you wrote.

In regards to what I wrote, I just because I think that a certain BPM is viewed as adequate, that does not mean other tempos are not adequate. My post said nothing about what the best tempo was. That is a different debate. I also never said "play slow music," or anything like that. Moreover, I was commenting about what certain people tend to think, I never said that I felt that way.

My point was that people hear a style of music/tempo in class. They tend to feel ok dancing to it outside of class.

Basically, if you want to change a scene, bridge a gap, whatever, it is very helpful, almost critical, to have some teachers on your side or be a teacher yourself. That is my advice to the Kenny. In my mind, teachers are the key element. Teachers can indoctrinate the dancers in their very formative early days.

[funkyfreak]

I don't see too much disagreement between us, just a matter of wording and how we interpret the words. I don't disagree with what you wrote.
My point was that people hear a style of music/tempo in class. They tend to feel ok dancing to it outside of class.

Cool.
I agree in a sense, when phrased like the last sentence above, when it comes to newbie beginners. I disagreed if you were saying that slow tempos is popular in general because that's what's played in classes.

Rock on.
-FF

[julius]

In LA, you could never change the scene with teachers, because nobody takes lessons regularly. Surprisingly (or not), a lot of people here learn on the social dance floor.

So depending on your market (and here is where I mention that I am sure KC is nothing like LA) you have to vary your approach.

[Greg Avakian]

Just want to say that Lindy lessons are indeed the only way to teach masses of people Lindy -and I want to reinforce the point that ECS dancers are not going to start dancing Lindy to fast music when they aren't comfortable with triple steps.

BTW, I am NOT advocating that anybody start a 'groove' dance in KC. If you read my post, I specifically recomend against changing the format, but I do suggest buying some of the music that has been proven to be popular nationwide and trying it out. My point is that it has worked really well in most of the country to mix up the music and that is how to satisfy and inspire that most number of dancers.


Jeremy,
I'm wondering how much time you've spent on the east coast and how you formed your opinion of the scene over here? Yeah, Paul and Jesse were around on the west coast for a long while, but I was at Paul's first workshops on the east coast and at Jesse's first DJ gig on the east coast and -as an east coaster- I feel very comfortable telling you that these guys -along with Bill B. and Rayned- opened the ears of a lot of dancers (not to mention DJs!).

In Philly, there was virtually NO Lindy at all until I started a 'groove' dance (appropriately called "Philadelphia Lindy Project") and within 3-4 months the local ECS club was losing nights and our Lindy dance had become the most popular weekly DJed dance.

It's no accident that venues like Hush in NYC and now Frim Fram Jam are the big weekly dances as well.

And even though SoCal is in a world of it's own, how do you explain the sucess of Lindy Groove?

[kitkat]

My two cents, even though they're a little outdated (it's been a while since I've spent more than 2 weeks there, but I do talk about it with friends), is that KC already has what I think most people would call a "groove" lindy scene. And that's why the lindy and east coast scenes are so divided--they can't stand each other's music, so they don't really want to share venues. I can't say much about the west coast swing issue; I've only made friends and talked to people within the ECS & lindy scenes.

However, the total number of swing dancers is too small and the distribution of dancers & venues too spread out (okay, it's no worse than LA I'm sure for driving, but at least you're not driving across 40 minutes of prairie) to support scenes that are completely independent of each other.

The impression I get is that Kenny's trying to get attendance up (and thus venues/events surviving), and one of his ideas for doing that is to get the various types of swing dancers coming to the same dances--not just trying to convert west-coasters and east-coasters to dancing lindy.

Did I get it right, Kenny?

[swinginstyle]

Good point, Greg:

Kenny--are you asking how to convert people to lindy or how to make lindy hoppers & east coasters happy while at the same venue?

Well, I certainly can't make everyone happy. Let me try explaining in a roundabout fashion. What I see are a lot of ECS dancers addicted to speed. The music that dance to is defined as neo. if these dancers dance anywhere else, they'd have a hard time dealing. Also, I see ECS dancers as having a difficult time with slower music (they don't learn how to triple). Well, I'd like to add more "swinging" music to my collection that would suit the tastes of our ECS dancers.

that was Part 1. I just started a new monthly (bi-monthly) dance in KC. I would like to make it a place where all the swing dancers want to come. I've realized that I need music that swings and a good mix of music. I also need good dancers to come. I've seen the ECS dancers snub places cuz it's too slow or lindy hoppers snub a place b/c it's all neo.

So, bottomline is that I'd like to keep people happy with the music, while playing excellent "swing" music. Conversion is secondary. Experience tells me, though, that some people will be sparked into trying something new by either watching some really awesome dancing or them asking how to dance to this particular song. It sounds as though I'm rambling here.

[swinginstyle]

Basically, if you want to change a scene, bridge a gap, whatever, it is very helpful, almost critical, to have some teachers on your side or be a teacher yourself. That is my advice to the Kenny. In my mind, teachers are the key element. Teachers can indoctrinate the dancers in their very formative early days.

Nate, I do have this going on fortunately. There's a core group of us instructors, part-time djs, performers they have created a following. It's slow process, but seeds are being planted. This next part is for kitkat: I have dancers coming up to me at L&Co asking for new moves and I'm showing lindy stuff (that can be fitted into EC world) and musicality. It's so cool!

I do appreciate this advice people are providing. It's awesome. I'm just trying to indoctrinate some people that have been entrenched in EC. Just have to find out what works for certain people.

This may be an aside, but what has worked for me was first going to Monsters of Swing. I was majorly depressed after the first night. Seeing all those awesome lindy hoppers and realizing I barely knew how to do it. I got out of the funk and had a good time that weekend. then through traveling for workshops and exchanges, I've realized what's out there. Going outside by scene, experiencing the different flavors (dance and music-wise) has really helped

[swinginstyle]

My two cents, even though they're a little outdated (it's been a while since I've spent more than 2 weeks there, but I do talk about it with friends), is that KC already has what I think most people would call a "groove" lindy scene. And that's why the lindy and east coast scenes are so divided--they can't stand each other's music, so they don't really want to share venues. I can't say much about the west coast swing issue; I've only made friends and talked to people within the ECS & lindy scenes.

However, the total number of swing dancers is too small and the distribution of dancers & venues too spread out (okay, it's no worse than LA I'm sure for driving, but at least you're not driving across 40 minutes of prairie) to support scenes that are completely independent of each other.

The impression I get is that Kenny's trying to get attendance up (and thus venues/events surviving), and one of his ideas for doing that is to get the various types of swing dancers coming to the same dances--not just trying to convert west-coasters and east-coasters to dancing lindy.

Did I get it right, Kenny?

Before I posted some of my posts, I should have read this one. Yeah, in my opinion, KC has a much slower lindy scene, with the exception of two instructors (Jake and Chrissy). Otherwise, you rarely see any lindy hopper busting it out. The first time in many years was at a KC comp this Nov. J&C are another reason I'm into lindy and feel it can grow in KC. They really show that lindy can be high-powered and creative in front of the ECS set.

Kitkat, you're right. You can probably read my previous post saying the same thing virtually. (Oh, and let's forget about the westies in this discussion). Music needs to be better blended in my opinion. I don't attend some "lindy" dances b/c the music is too "blah". Don't get me wrong, I love the music, but too much of the same slow tempo kills my mood.

[funkyfreak]

It sounds like you have the right ideas: you have some passionate people trying to make a change in a certain direction, and you already know the music is key.

It also sounds like you have some patience, which is good, because things like what you want can take some time. Keep playing the music you like and want when you can, and as people are comfortable with the music than they can begin exploring the dance options that came out of it.

-FF

[CafeSavoy]

Please, ella's version of Bill Bailey is not 130, it's more like 160.

Which version do you have? Mine is about 130.

[Downeastdancer]

This thread is sooooo relevant to me right now! Thanks everyone who is posting their advice! We are starting a monthly dance series in January and I am getting hammered on to play neo swing, waltz, chacha, latin, country/western etc. We (the two dj's involved) have already decided it will be a mixed ECS/WCS/Lindy dance, but we're a little nervous about the requests for other stuff. We don't intend to play it, because it's a swing dance, and we hope we aren't forced to (because the number of people who dance is very small and their repertoire is very limited.) I'd like to strongly agree with the points made about having good dancer role models out there doing inspirational and musical lindy (at any speed!) and teachers who can help folks look just like them. We're working on it! Wish us luck, and keep the advice coming!

[Nate Dogg]

Please, ella's version of Bill Bailey is not 130, it's more like 160.

Which version do you have? Mine is about 130.

Ditto, I checked the track last night. My BPM measurement was much closer to what Rayned said, 130-135.

So, either we have different versions or I was to quick to admit to putting the wrong BPM out there.

Nathan

[funkyfreak]

We (the two dj's involved) have already decided it will be a mixed ECS/WCS/Lindy dance, but we're a little nervous about the requests for other stuff. We don't intend to play it, because it's a swing dance, and we hope we aren't forced to (because the number of people who dance is very small and their repertoire is very limited.)

Not to go off in another direction, but requests are just that - requests. If they are a dance that doesn't fit the night, and you don't play them, and those people actually care enough about one song a night to stop coming -- you no longer have those requests. Annoyance solved

-FF