Jam Circles

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Nate Dogg · #46 Post by **Nate Dogg** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:53 pm

Lawrence wrote: I agree, completely, again. (What's going on here, Kevin?) Part of my point earlier that got lost in my sarcasm (and I suspect the implied point of Greg's post I quoted) is that there is something a little lame about your scene/venue/crowd if a song, itself, inspires a jam. The problems we all have with "Jump Jive and Wail" or "Sing, Sing, Sing" are not that they are bad songs, per se, just that we (at least I and many others) am sick of them because they not only got overplayed, but that a damn jam broke out automatically if they ever were played. Everyone's dance gets interrupted, all so a few people can scream "woo" to the same 5 couples in any given scene who break out the same played-out moves each and every time. It's "neat-o keen, Daddy-o" for newbies, and an ego-boost for the participants, but it REALLY gets boring after you have seen those moves every week for the past three months.

I'm obviously not a fan of jams and feel somewhat proud to have played my own small part in all but eliminating them as a point of social etiquette in Austin. (The social taboo against being a show-off). It's really not because I'm bitter about not being able to bust it out in a jam, even though there are some other personal biases at work against them in that they bring the dark side of my competitive personality out. And it's not that they are inherently evil, but they get out of hand.

I also recognize that some people do like jams and I don't mind if they get their way, too. However, if and when jams happen, they should be more spontaneous than pre-programmed or inspired by little more than the song the DJ plays.

There was a jam last night in Austin, I was not the DJ. It was done by song request. They guy who wanted to be in the jam circle made a very specific song request. When the DJ played the song, he and his friends were there ready to start their jam. Of course, it had to be a really fast to work.

Would not have happened during your set, you would probably not honor the request. Heck, they probably know better than to ask.

mousethief · #47 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:06 pm

Was it "Zoot Suit Riot?" Don West loves that song, I tell ya. In fact, he's doing a mini-routine to "Sing, Sing, Sing" tonight.

I love jams; they're what made me want to get better. When I started, more people wanted int he jam circle than in each others' pants, if you can believe that.

I draw a direct line between performance couples and competitors and the strength of their scene's jam circles.

For the record, I'm going to test out some different material this weekend and see what happens.

Kalman

coreyj5 · #48 Post by **coreyj5** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:14 pm

That's one of the reasons I kept coming back as well. I loved watching jams. I still really like jams probably because we don't have them in Arizona. We don't really have enough people to do a jam most of the time and if we bring a tempo over 180, everybody sits down. It's really sad.

mousethief · #49 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:24 pm

coreyj5 wrote:That's one of the reasons I kept coming back as well. I loved watching jams. I still really like jams probably because we don't have them in Arizona. We don't really have enough people to do a jam most of the time and if we bring a tempo over 180, everybody sits down. It's really sad.

I like to push for 240+. The problem is - at least in Dallas - people have become so accustomed to jams being the same people that it became a performance. I generally only crank the jam-friendly songs after a spontaneous jam has broken out during a mid- to up-tempo piece. That way, more people are inclined to dance during the first song and just as inclined to really watch during the faster song.

I don't believe in letting jams go beyond 2-3 songs. After that, you're just DJing for those 4-8 people and not the public anymore.

Kalman

funkyfreak · #50 Post by **funkyfreak** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:51 pm

I never understood the inabilty of people who,
not liking to watch jams, don't dance outside
the circle (space permitting).

-FF

yedancer · #51 Post by **yedancer** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:52 pm

Lawrence wrote:It's "neat-o keen, Daddy-o" for newbies

...

it REALLY gets boring after you have seen those moves every week for the past three months.

...

I'm obviously not a fan of jams and feel somewhat proud to have played my own small part in all but eliminating them as a point of social etiquette in Austin.

I agree that it's best to distance ourselves as much as possible from the way the dance was originally done. And I also agree that the less fun and more boring venues are for new dancers, the better. I mean, why would we want to make it exciting for them? Why would we want to give them something to talk about to their friends the next day? Why would we want to give them a reason to come back next week?

Ok, so I'm being sarcastic, but seriously, I'm kind of surprised at the anti-jam attitude. I agree that they can be over-done, but I clearly remember how much I liked jams back when I was a beginner. They were the hilight of the night, and if I missed a jam because I left early, I was disappointed.

I don't like the 4 or 5 song long jams. Cut it short at 2 songs. It's better to have a jam that leaves people hungering for more, than a jam that fizzles into retardedness.

Lawrence · #52 Post by **Lawrence** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:47 pm

First, I did not mean to engage in a debate about jam circles, in general. The points about my not liking them were a part of admitting my own bias up front. The ultimate point (on topic with the thread) was that they should occur spontaneously instead of being forced upon everyone by the DJ. As such, it should not be the song, but the circumstances that create a jam.

As for the substantive point, and as I wrote earlier, I do respect that some people like jams and I don't mind if they get their way. I also don't expect to fall in the majority on this or any other Bulletin Board that caters to the more obsessive Lindy Hopper, who, in turn, will tend to like having jams: especially amongst those who post the most frequently. I also completely respect that some people derive inspiration to become better dancers from their desire to perform in jam circles.

I hope, though, that "they" respect the point of view of the silent majority, as well, and realize that for every person shouting "woo," there are probably 2 or 3 who are not so enthusiastic, especially when they've seen it every other week for the past three months. By "newbies" I don't just mean first-timers, but people who have been dancing under 6 months, many of whom tire of the show-offs after the first meeting.

FInally, just so the point is not overlooked, the most phenomenal dancing I've ever seen occurs on an ordinary social dance floor between two people who just happen to hit it regardless of whether anyone is watching. THAT is what ultimately keeps newbies coming back.

julius · #53 Post by **julius** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:35 pm

Like anything else, jams are fine in moderation. Your "no jams at ALL" philosophy is equally as horrible as "jams every week". And I honestly am totally baffled that you think "circumstances" should dictate whether a jam occurs, rather than the music that is being played. What is more important to creating excitement in dancing than exciting music with an exciting partner? If I'm standing in line at the grocery store and the PA system suddenly begins playing "Every Tub" and Christy Vasiliauskas or somebody happens to be buying detergent ahead of me, I'm probably going to ask her to dance, even if I'm wearing shorts, flipflops, and a panama hat during a 1000 degree heatwave in Salt Lake City, Utah.

At this point I miss jams. I really do. But the reason I miss jams in LA is because when the rare hot song gets played, everybody who wants to dance to it DANCES THE WHOLE SONG instead of forming a jam circle, and that makes me insanely happy.

yedancer · #54 Post by **yedancer** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:59 pm

Lawrence wrote:FInally, just so the point is not overlooked, the most phenomenal dancing I've ever seen occurs on an ordinary social dance floor between two people who just happen to hit it regardless of whether anyone is watching. THAT is what ultimately keeps newbies coming back.

I would have to disagree that THAT is what ultimately keeps newbies coming back. I my experience, it was the excitement and high energy that kept me coming back. This is true of a lot of the other beginners I know/knew.

I do agree that jams should be spontaneous, though. And I do agree that it gets boring to see the same people doing the same thing jam circles.

yedancer · #55 Post by **yedancer** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:00 pm

julius wrote:If I'm standing in line at the grocery store and the PA system suddenly begins playing "Every Tub" and Christy Vasiliauskas or somebody happens to be buying detergent ahead of me, I'm probably going to ask her to dance, even if I'm wearing shorts, flipflops, and a panama hat during a 1000 degree heatwave in Salt Lake City, Utah.

HAHAHA! The great thing is, that is a completely true statement. Except that if it was 1000 degrees, you would probably be dead. But other than that, it's completely true.

djstarr · #56 Post by **djstarr** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 3:35 am

main_stem wrote:
djstarr wrote:I listened to Now You Has Jazz - Louis Armstrong MGM soundtrack today; there is a cut called J.T. Jive at around 300 bpm that I'm going to try for a jam; I have not been too successful at inspiring jams up to now.
I just let them happen (jams). If I play somehting that inspires people to bust out great. But, deliberately trying to get people to start a jam usually ends up falling flat in my experience.

-Kevin

I don't want to be misunderstood here; I really don't care too much whether a jam happens or not; but it's nice to be able to see people bust out and rip it up; and I don't think I play enough good fast songs yet. I tend to wimp out at 260-270.

Maybe just as Julius pointed out it's cooler when everybody dances to your fast songs!

Lawrence · #57 Post by **Lawrence** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:48 pm

Lawrence wrote:As for the substantive point, and as I wrote earlier, I do respect that some people like jams and I don't mind if they get their way.

julius wrote:Like anything else, jams are fine in moderation. Your "no jams at ALL" philosophy is equally as horrible as "jams every week".

[confused] With whom are you disagreeing?

And I honestly am totally baffled that you think "circumstances" should dictate whether a jam occurs, rather than the music that is being played. What is more important to creating excitement in dancing than exciting music with an exciting partner? If I'm standing in line at the grocery store and the PA system suddenly begins playing "Every Tub" and Christy Vasiliauskas or somebody happens to be buying detergent ahead of me, I'm probably going to ask her to dance, even if I'm wearing shorts, flipflops, and a panama hat during a 1000 degree heatwave in Salt Lake City, Utah.

That's not a jam circle. [more confused]

Moreover, her being there IS a "circumstance," and the song playing out of context is another one. Nobody said that all the circumstances needed to allign perfectly.

The point is that there is not much of a difference between a DJ "calling" a jam and playing a song to provoke one, usually helped by tipping off a few key dancers in the crowd to get it started.

At this point I miss jams. I really do. But the reason I miss jams in LA is because when the rare hot song gets played, everybody who wants to dance to it DANCES THE WHOLE SONG instead of forming a jam circle, and that makes me insanely happy.

[Even more confused] So... we AGREE that dancing to an entire "jam-quality" song with one partner--improvising moves you wouldn't dream of doing elsewhere instead of choreographed, pre-programmed moves in a jam circle--is better than a jam circle limiting the dancing to only one couple at a time?

I LOVE having non-arguments that artificially simulate the emotional anxt of disagreement for no good reason.

Have you been talking to my ex-girlfriend?

Soupbone · #58 Post by **Soupbone** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:41 am

djstarr wrote: and I don't think I play enough good fast songs yet. I tend to wimp out at 260-270.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. So, we can't consider 260-270 "fast?" Maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent or misreading your sentences..... or maybe I'm on an island by myself. But, 260-270 seems to be quite fast!

That's not to say it's at the extreme of the BPMs to which people can dance. But, please don't tell me folks don't consider that fast! If so, I should just lay my 33-year old, out of shape ass down and die right now.

julius · #59 Post by **julius** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:10 pm

Lawrence: Jams suck.
Julius: Not in moderation.
Lawrence: Can you define "moderation"? What does "not" mean? Are you sure you are saying what I know you mean? I don't think you know what you are talking about. In fact, what you are saying is exactly what I'm saying.
Julius: Possibly, but I still think you're a doofball.

Late Night at Memories opened up again this weekend and the first jam I've seen in LA in MONTHS occurred, and it was freakin GREAT. The DJ played a hot song, the dancers began busting out, and people formed a ring around the most exciting dancers. It was completely organic and natural. People went in and did things I hadn't seen them do in jams before. Hell *I* went in and did a trick I'd made up a few weeks previously. If that's "choreographed" then I'll take it. It was AWESOME.

My ultimate point is that a good jam is really good, and a bad jam is really bad. There's no such thing as a mediocre jam.

Moderation in all things, except lindy hop.

djstarr · #60 Post by **djstarr** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:57 pm

Soupbone wrote:
djstarr wrote: and I don't think I play enough good fast songs yet. I tend to wimp out at 260-270.
Hold on, hold on, hold on. So, we can't consider 260-270 "fast?" Maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent or misreading your sentences..... or maybe I'm on an island by myself. But, 260-270 seems to be quite fast!

That's not to say it's at the extreme of the BPMs to which people can dance. But, please don't tell me folks don't consider that fast! If so, I should just lay my 33-year old, out of shape ass down and die right now.

You better start getting in shape before you show up here

Yes, 260-270 is fast, but it doesn't limit who goes out on the floor to dance. At OOJ (One O'Clock Jump) this weekend, which has the rep of playing the fastest music in town, I played XYZ and about 10 couples ripped it up to the whole song - it was fun. And the DJs after me also played some barn burners.

Sylvia Sykes was in town for a workshop; she had mentioned Ride Red Ride as a good fast song; the version I have on Apollo Jump starts out at 340 then goes back and forth between 340 and 170; I'll have to try that out and see what the crowd tops out at. Or maybe I'll save that for when you are in town Gary