The Blues

[yedancer]

I think Duke Ellington said it best:

"There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."

[CafeSavoy]

Kind of Blue, Miles Davis. "All Blues" and "So What" (I think) have a distinctly blues feeling and song structure, but because the melodies and solos are played modally, they don't sound like traditional blues (with the exception of Cannonball Adderly's playing, because he can't quite wrap his head around Miles' conception for the album). I want to call those songs blues, but I can't wholeheartedly do so. See, here's the problem; blues is so inclusive, once you find something that lies in the gray zone, it almost automatically becomes blues.

Joe Williams does a version of "Everyday I Have the Blues" to the music of "All Blues".

[Lawrence]

Just curious, Lawrence (or anyone). Are there any swing songs that follow the 12-bar format that you would *not* consider blues?

Great question. Yes. "Jack the Bear" by Ellington. (It does shift from 12-Bar to AABA, then back to 12 Bar to finish the song, with clear 4-bar transitional phrases marking each shift, but it is primarily done in 12-Bar format.)

Basie does it, too.

[Shorty Dave]

Thus, Ellington's 1942 cut of "C Jam Blues" is in the Swing style, and therefore I wouldn't call it a Blues tune even though its in the 12 bar blues format.

Bingo...that's what I was looking for. Thank you for answering my question, Reuben!

So this is interesting. It seems like you are saying it's either a "Swing style" song or a "Blues" song, but can't be both. I had always thought of songs like C Jam Blues, One O'Clock Jump, etc as both blues songs and swing songs. But now I'm not so sure.

Hmmm...what do other people think? Is "C Jam Blues" (let's take Ellington's 42 cut so people know we're not talking about some random techno version) a blues song?

[Shorty Dave]

Just curious, Lawrence (or anyone). Are there any swing songs that follow the 12-bar format that you would *not* consider blues?

Great question. Yes. "Jack the Bear" by Ellington. (It does shift from 12-Bar to AABA, then back to 12 Bar to finish the song, with clear 4-bar transitional phrases marking each shift, but it is primarily done in 12-Bar format.)

Basie does it, too.

Another great example! So why don't you consider Jack the Bear blues?

[Lawrence]

As you've said, 12 bar blues is a format, more often looked at as a standard chord progression.

Thus music can be played in that format of most any style.

Also, Blues the style is not Blues the 12 bar format, though they usually go hand in hand.

I know just enough music theory to be dangerous, so don't quote me on this, but I think this is correct.

As I have learned it, "Chord Progression" does not refer to the structure/format of the music, but either to a sequence (progression) of chords that go well together in a given genre or a relationship betwen certain chords that blend well together in different patterns (I can't remember which). The chord progressions and the scales that accompany them are most of what define a genre of music.

"Harmonic Structure" refers to the "format" (AABA, 12-Bar Blues, etc.). They are transferrable from genre to gengre of music. "All My Loving" (Beatles) and "Corner Pocket" (Basie) both use the AABA harmonic structure even though one is Rock and the other Jazz.

Different chord progessions can be fit into the various harmonic structures. But "chord progression" refers to the actual chords used in that structure, not the structure, itself.

For instance, in Blues, E-A-B, C-F-G, A-E-D, etc. are common, simple chord progressions. Using E-A-B, a Blues song could follow a 12-Bar Harmonic structure:

E-E-E-E, A-A-E-E, B-A-E-E. (each chord signifies 1 Bar (4 counts))

This is a VERY common Blues pattern: "Stormy Monday Blues," "Pride and Joy," "Sweet Home Chicago" and thousands more songs all follow this same Blues pattern. In a sense, they are the exact same song, but with different lyrics, different melodies, different harmonies, and different solos. (Same thing with "Twist and Shout" and "La Bamba" in Rock: same chord progressions, even the same melody, but with different lyrics.)

But this chord progression can also follow a 16-Bar structure, like "My Babe":

E-E-E-E, E-E-B-B, E-E-A-A, E-E-E-B

It can also follow an 8-Bar Structure, like "Key To the Highway:"

E-B-A-A, E-B-E-B

Another great example! So why don't you consider Jack the Bear blues?

Jack the Bear uses Jazz chord progressions and jazz scales in the melody and the solo work. For a layman, it is sometimes difficult to judge because the jazz and blues music theories overlap in some areas so as to produce similar audible results. Again, I know just enough music theory to be dangerous, here, so I'll leave it at that.

[falty411]

I had always thought of songs like C Jam Blues, One O'Clock Jump, etc as both blues songs and swing songs. But now I'm not so sure.

Hmmm...what do other people think? Is "C Jam Blues" (let's take Ellington's 42 cut so people know we're not talking about some random techno version) a blues song?

There is no black and white, its more of a sliding scale....to me at least.

ps, I did answer your question. You did not ask for any details, just a song example. Maybe next time you should be more clear in your question and I will be more clear in my answer.

[D Nice]

It results in a fairly useless, overbroad definition that runs contrary to everyone's understanding of what "Blues" music is.

Instead, I submit that Blues music must be definied musically: either 1) by a musical theory of chord progressions and scales that produces a coherent genre of music or 2) from the ultimate "sound" that that theory produces and that can be produced through giving a rhythmic "inflection" to they way a song from another genre is played. I prefer the former definition that focuses on musical theory, but I understand that people commonly do use the borader, latter approach in everyday discussion.

Wow... change the word Blues with Groove and you are restating my argument with you against the application of Groove as a term for non-Groove music. So which is it? Or is it both? Is there a reason why one argument works for one type of music but not another?

[D Nice]

By labeling in advance (ad hominum) any comment or qualification to the contrary as being racist, it becomes a shockingly racist statement, itself.

No it wasn't and no it isn't. It was use of humor. Even if it was literal it would be a statement of intolerance not of racism, even taking into account that the implied assumption that it is white people who would say otherwise... narrowing the field to those that are intolerant of others to the point of denial of any positive contributions made, prevents an overly broad categorization of all whites as being intolerant and delusional.

Yeesh.

[Lawrence]

Instead, I submit that Blues music must be definied musically: either 1) by a musical theory of chord progressions and scales that produces a coherent genre of music or 2) from the ultimate "sound" that that theory produces and that can be produced through giving a rhythmic "inflection" to they way a song from another genre is played. I prefer the former definition that focuses on musical theory, but I understand that people commonly do use the borader, latter approach in everyday discussion.

Wow... change the word Blues with Groove and you are restating my argument with you against the application of Groove as a term for non-Groove music. So which is it? Or is it both? Is there a reason why one argument works for one type of music but not another?

Good point, but the second type of "musical" definition applies to "groove swing" music as I see it: the ultimate sound created by the music. What produces groove swing is not the actual notes or compostion or music theory as the the manner of performance and amplification. The bass tends to be amplified more, such that it takes a more omnipresent role in the music. Not only is it more noticeable, in and of itself, but it also provided a stronger foundation or center off of which the solos and melodies can flow. It still is a musical definition, not an emotional ("this is sad, cathartic music") or historical definition. It still focuses on the sound, not the incidentals.

[Shorty Dave]

Fine, Mike, you win. You answered the question I wrote. I was looking for specific versions of specific songs (so that we could discuss those songs), which I thought was clear in my post and which Reuben and Lawrence answered for me (assuming, of course, that Lawrence meant the 1940 Ellington version, which kind of goes without saying). As I said before, I apologize if I was not clear, and next time, Mike, I will be even more explicit when chatting with you...

[julius]

But your definition, Lawrence, is still "so overbroad as to be useless". Just being bass-heavy jazz doesn't signal "groove" to me. Basie Live at the Sands (Before Frank) playing Flight of the Foo Birds or Woodside isn't "groove" to me. Recapitulate your definition, exactly, and let's see how it compares with trying to exactly define the blues, hm?

I don't see why these things need to be classified in advance. It's not like you can set up a list of criteria in advance before EVER HEARING a song and then determine if the song is blues or not. You must always, always listen to the song FIRST and then apply your criteria. And since you do ... you're automatically deciding on whether a song is blues on a case by case basis.

What's the point of generating a definition or recipe? For any definition you can create I guarantee you in the thousands of pieces of music performed in the past hundred years, there is a counterexample of some sort. That's why music is a living breathing entity and not some codified computer-generated music.

[D Nice]

Julius pretty much hit on the head... the definition is unsatisfactory for the exact same reasons why emotional content is for you re: the blues.

Should I point out that if certain progressions and tonal choices have "emotional" context then using the emotional content of a song is a valid description of a song and whether or not it is blues?

I can name lots of songs that have a stronger bass not of the solidly of the "swing jazz" genre but certainly related to it. RAB with its slap bass comes to mind, as does Jump Blues. So does a lot of early rock and roll. Even early Country music and Blue Grass.

If this definition works for "Groove Swing" *shudder*, then any song that uses blue notes is blues, would be a perfectly acceptable definition of blues. I think we can all agree though, that it isn't. S'what happens when you try and invent a new genre without understanding the differences as well as the similarities between the existing genres.

[Lawrence]

If this definition works for "Groove Swing" *shudder*, then any song that uses blue notes is blues, would be a perfectly acceptable definition of blues. I think we can all agree though, that it isn't. S'what happens when you try and invent a new genre without understanding the differences as well as the similarities between the existing genres.

You're getting personal and condescending, yet again, in an attempt to artificially elevate yourself. You're brilliant argumentation convinced me, once again. You're right, Damon, I have absolutely no understanding of the differences as well as the similarities between the existing genres.

Instead of taking the bait (which I somewhat already have), I'll opt to not debate the point further with you.

[D Nice]

If this definition works for "Groove Swing" *shudder*, then any song that uses blue notes is blues, would be a perfectly acceptable definition of blues. I think we can all agree though, that it isn't. S'what happens when you try and invent a new genre without understanding the differences as well as the similarities between the existing genres.

You're getting personal and condescending, yet again, in an attempt to artificially elevate yourself. You're brilliant argumentation convinced me, once again. You're right, Damon, I have absolutely no understanding of the differences as well as the similarities between the existing genres.

Instead of taking the bait (which I somewhat already have), I'll opt to not debate the point further with you.

Personal and condescending? Moi? To elevate myself? That is ludicrous. I don't need to elevate myself, I already think I am the center of the universe (not just this one mind you but mathmatically projected alternate universes as well) . Though I could just as easily say that, once again when inconsistancies are shown in your arguments you take them as personal attacks and threaten to take your ball and go home. (Now I'm being personal and condescending... for illustrative purposes.)

"Groove Swing" is an invented genre, which shows no defining characteristics that can't be applied to so many songs that are so vastly different from one and another in so many ways, which implies you either don't know/understand the differences and similarities in the various forms of music you are trying to apply this label to or you don't care.

Yet you hold a completely different standard for Blues Music. The choices seem to be either ignorance or hypocrisy. (See, here is another example of me being personal and condescending, again for illustrative purposes only.) Before I was simply pointing out the inconsistancies. Why do you take disagreements as personal attacks. You wouldn't happen to be related to Joe Lanza would you? (Now this is me being both funny and incredibly cruel, hitting you far below the belt. I'm being personal but more of an asshole than condescending here, for illustrative purposes of course .)

Lighten up and don't take yourself so seriousely Lawerence, you'll give yourself an ulcer if you don't end up losing your hair first (take it from me).