SwingDJs

So, I was reading a jazz appreciation book over vacation and it talked briefly about songs that inspired other songs. Not just a cover or remake, but taking a riff or a minor theme and expanding it into a completely new song.

For example:
a riff from Jammin' for the Jack-pot (Mills Blue Rhythm) became Jumpin' at the Woodside (Basie) ......


Since I had fun listening to the examples side by side, I was wondering if y'all had other examples......

Great question! For starters, how 'bout:

Night Train deriving from a riff from Happy Go Lucky Local
Moten Swing deriving from a riff from You're Driving Me Crazy
Bill Elliot's Twelve Cillinders deriving from Topsy in general

Shorty Dave wrote:Great question! For starters, how 'bout:

Night Train deriving from a riff from Happy Go Lucky Local
Moten Swing deriving from a riff from You're Driving Me Crazy
Bill Elliot's Twelve Cillinders deriving from Topsy in general

Or Bill Elliott' Streamliner driving from "A Minor Goes a Muggin'" (learned that one from Reuben quite some time ago).


How about Tar Paper Stomp --> In the Mood.

What's the line between "derived from" and "blatant rip off?"

artistic license.

and good hair.

kalman

GuruReuben wrote:What's the line between "derived from" and "blatant rip off?"

Good point... As an example, Night Train was a blatant rip-off of Ellington's Happy Go Lucky Local. It seems that Duke would have been okay with that except that he never got writing credit when [forgot the guy's name] stole it from him. Duke threatened to sue but was too nice of a guy to go through with it.

Apparently the Mills Blue Rythm Band's "Barrelhouse" was blatanly ripped off by Harry "Sweets" Edison when he gave himself song credit and named it "jive at Five" for Count Basie.

Devil's advocate:
Since a number of the Mill's Blue Rhythm went on to Basie's band, I wonder if they were ALSO part of the creation of the original songs? Could it be that the melody or riff in question COULD actually belong to the guy who went on to Basie's band, even without his name being on the credits for the original tune?

Shorty Dave wrote:Great question! For starters, how 'bout:

Night Train deriving from a riff from Happy Go Lucky Local

Which was derived from Johnny Hodges, That's the Blues Old Man.

GuruReuben wrote:What's the line between "derived from" and "blatant rip off?"

I think Reuben's point was that Bill Elliott blatantly ripped off "Minor Goes a Muggin," which is exactly what I thought when I first heard the latter. I like "Streamliner" quite a bit, but you don't get a new song by changing the tempo and a bit of the notes/arrangement. I wonder whether it was inadvertant or not.

bill has admitted that certain songs are totally the template for some of his songs. this is a time honored tradition in arranging music. eddie reed's "redskin rendezvous" is a total ripoff of Cherokee, even winking at the fact by putting 'redskin' in the title.

to answer your question more briefly, it was not inadvertent.

as far as what the line is between derivation and blatant ripoff, the courts decided that "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison is a blatant ripoff of "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons. if you listen to the two, they have very similar chord structures but also melody notes and even direction the melody takes (goes up when the original goes up, and so on). mainly if the melody is identifiably the same, it's counted as a ripoff.

lots of riff-tastic swing songs don't have a melody per se however, just a series of catchy riffs thrown together. (hum "Every Tub" -- the "melody" as most people would identify it doesn't exist until midway through the song, and even then it's just a repeated riff again, albeit one played in unison and slightly more catchy so that people think of it as a melody.)

so basically if you take the chords of a riff song and create a similar riff off those chords, it's not a blatant ripoff unless ALL the riffs in the song are similar. in my opinion.

julius wrote: as far as what the line is between derivation and blatant ripoff, the courts decided that "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison is a blatant ripoff of "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons. if you listen to the two, they have very similar chord structures but also melody notes and even direction the melody takes (goes up when the original goes up, and so on). mainly if the melody is identifiably the same, it's counted as a ripoff.

Yeah, George Harrison lost his suit. But, I am not convinced he did in intentionally.

A lot of times, musicians hear other songs and end up being inspired without realizing it.

Ex:
Rolling Stones "Has Anybody Seen My Baby" was inspired by a K.D. Lang song, the Stones later gave her credit.

Currently, there is some controversy about Dylan taking lyrics from a Japanese author for his song, "Floater."

Robert Palmer's version of "Some Guys Have All the Luck" was an accidental cover. Similar story to the Rolling Stones issue.

Willie Nelson has also admitted to have accidentally "covering" other people.

Then there is "Ghostbusters" vs. "I Want A New Drug." This one was probably not an accident. Ray Parker Jr., still claims his innocence though.

julius wrote:bill has admitted that certain songs are totally the template for some of his songs. this is a time honored tradition in arranging music. eddie reed's "redskin rendezvous" is a total ripoff of Cherokee, even winking at the fact by putting 'redskin' in the title.

I think it's actually Alva's arrangement, and personally while I hear "Cherokee" in it, it isn't nearly as blatent as "Steamliner," or even worse, "Struttin' With Kate" (have you read the liner notes on that one? haha!) Though, I guess at this point I'll have to admit my Eddie Reed bias... but still.

GemZombie wrote:How about Tar Paper Stomp --> In the Mood.

And wasn't Tar Paper Stom derived from Hot and Anxious?

Lindy Bomb wrote:
And wasn't Tar Paper Stom derived from Hot and Anxious?

"Hot and bothered" -isn't it?

How about Duke's "Clarinet Lament" -do y'all hear the similarity in the second solo to 'Basin street blues'? It starts about 1:12 into the song...

I love this of stuff. Friday night we were dancing and the pianist stuck the theme from "rockin' in rhythm" into the middle of a solo...