Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

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mr. e
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Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#1 Post by mr. e » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:09 am

Hi,
At some point, dancers should receive some education about Swing music, the rhythms and patterns etc. for their musicality. Of course many will develop an intuitive understanding, but some benefit from having a "theoretical" class I figure.

There are a couple of common excercises to do with people, e.g. giving them the task to raise their arm on beats 5 and 7 every eight etc.
But especially visual thinkers might need to get some visual explanations of what happens in the music. Some people can read sheet music and might actually benefit from seeing some patterns spelled out.

Stuff that I'd like to explain is:
- down beat vs. back beat (well, at least most learn rather early to clap on 2, not on 1...)
- straight time vs. swing time (aka: the difference between 1-and-2-and-3 vs. 1-a-2-a-3)
- (light) swing vs. medium swing vs. hard swing (and that this means you should use the same swing as the song, not some fixed rhythm you learned in a particular class)
- 32 bar form, 12 bar blues scheme, rhythm changes.

Do you have any:
- ideas/concepts around this subject
- recommendations for international teachers that are experts on that, whom we could ask to do a class when they are around
- song recommendations to explain these things
- material to explain such things, especially for visual-thinkers I'd like to give them some good printouts

When it comes to material, I'm trying to get hold of the "in the mood" line from a sheet. I figure it's a good example on having the theme not start on 1, but being "ahead" of the plain rhythm. I'd like to use that excerpt to explain people why it's not sufficient to be able to count 1 to 8...
But it might be a particularly hard one, so maybe too difficult for the average musicality class.

The flamewars are opened, go ahead!

P.S. Thanks for all the insights into DJing here. Just had my first DJ set last week (as last minute drop-in...), and it went quite well. I had the floor packed most of the time (interestingly, Cab Calloways "Are you hep to the jive" was one of the songs that didn't work), and some of the advanced dancers asked me about some of the songs I played, so I figure it wasn't bad. :-)

Haydn
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#2 Post by Haydn » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:29 pm

mr. e wrote:Do you have any recommendations for international teachers that are experts on that, whom we could ask to do a class when they are around
Which country are you based in?

mr. e
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#3 Post by mr. e » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:39 pm

Haydn wrote:Which country are you based in?
Germany. But we have lots of teachers from all over the world come here for event such as Rock that Swing in February, or La Santa in March (ok, technically speaking La Santa is in Africa, not in Germany... still it's closely tied to my scene). We aren't that far from Herrang or Snowball... can drop by at all the Frenchie festivals...

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Eyeball
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#4 Post by Eyeball » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:10 pm

mr. e wrote: But we have lots of teachers from all over the world come here for event such as Rock that Swing in February...
Does it have something to do with rock n roll in some way?

Oh - I guess so.

...."let you experience the feeling of the Swingin’ Forties and the Rockin’ Fifties. "

What about the 30s or is that too hard for younger people to connect with?

Haydn
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#5 Post by Haydn » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:16 am

mr. e wrote:Do you have any recommendations for international teachers that are experts on that, whom we could ask to do a class when they are around
Lennart Westerlund from Sweden/Herrang

Paul Overton and Sharon Ashe from North Carolina (I don't think they teach together now, but you might find some old reference material on Amazon or similar places)

Toon Town Dave
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#6 Post by Toon Town Dave » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:02 pm

mr. e, are you asking your question as a DJ or as a scene organizer?

I don't think it's the DJ's place to teach anything about music structure. We should choose good music to help dancers "develop an intuitive understanding".

The challenge to what you're asking is that it's a foundation of music theory applied to dance. That's not something that can be taught in a single class. Small ideas like phrasing, timing, etc, can be taught implicitly while teaching dance. The music theory side is best taught by musicians.

Ideally taught by musicians who dance, second best would be a dancer with some music background guiding the conversation. Jonathan Stout has done an excellent job, I've had classes lead by Steven Mitchell with various bands all have been successful developing a better sense of the music. The best that can do is teach a very cursory understanding of the music.

A deep technical understanding of the music is best left to music lessons, not dance lessons.

I'm more interested in that developing that intuitive understanding and more importantly just getting dancers to listen to the music more critically. Ideally I'd like dancers to hear the rhythm, the melody and even the dynamic range and incorporate that into their dancing even without a technical understanding.

Another tool to teach about the rhythm is tap. With a good rhythm tap teacher, it's almost as good as a music class but teachers material that can be directly applied to other dancing.

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#7 Post by lipi » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:11 pm

Toon Town Dave wrote: Another tool to teach about the rhythm is tap. With a good rhythm tap teacher, it's almost as good as a music class but teachers material that can be directly applied to other dancing.
indeed. and the swedes are relatively nearby, so you could get some of them over fairly easily, i imagine. i've had good tap classes from fatima and sakarias.

i also second the jonathan stout recommendation. he gives good music seminars.

Haydn
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#8 Post by Haydn » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:42 pm

I was thinking following Toon Town Dave's post. Perhaps you are thinking of running 'musicality' classes mr. e? What interest is there in this sort of thing in Germany? Some people in the London area have organised musicality workshops recently with some success - I went to one and enjoyed it. If you are going to run a musicality class, I would try to include a lot of practical exercises that everyone can join in with, and perhaps run a series of workshops instead of just a one-off, so that you can build gradually over the series instead of trying to squeeze everything into one session.
mr. e wrote:When it comes to material, I'm trying to get hold of the "in the mood" line from a sheet.
Sorry, but what do you mean by this :?:. Are you trying to find the lyrics to "In The Mood"?
mr. e wrote: Just had my first DJ set last week (as last minute drop-in...), and it went quite well. I had the floor packed most of the time (interestingly, Cab Calloways "Are you hep to the jive" was one of the songs that didn't work)
So what DID work? :wink:

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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#9 Post by lipi » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:01 am

Haydn wrote:
mr. e wrote:When it comes to material, I'm trying to get hold of the "in the mood" line from a sheet.
Sorry, but what do you mean by this :?:. Are you trying to find the lyrics to "In The Mood"?
presumably he means he's looking for some sheet music--a lead sheet or similar which has the melody line written out, showing that the melody does not start on count 1 of the first measure of the phrase.

except...don't both the intro melody and the main riff of "in the mood" start on 1? i can imagine dividing the riff in such a way that the last hit (just after the rest, at the end of the bar) is linked to the beginning of the next riff, but that feels odd to me. almost as odd as that last sentence.

so what do i know.

some songs with melodies that start at the end of the measure before the phrase starts (which i think is what you're looking for): "on the sunny side of the street" ("grab your" is the pick-up), "stormy weather" ("don't know" is the pick-up), and "st louis blues" ("i hate to" is the pick-up).

mr. e
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#10 Post by mr. e » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:50 am

Eyeball wrote:
mr. e wrote: But we have lots of teachers from all over the world come here for event such as Rock that Swing in February...
What about the 30s or is that too hard for younger people to connect with?
So let's have a look at the instructor lineup:
---
Sakarias & Frida
Nick & Carla
Mickey & Kelly
David & Heather
Hasse & Marie
Vincenzo & Isabella
Jørgen & Aina
Andreas & Jessica
William & Maeva
Jeremy & Laura
Juan & Sharon
Zack & Maryse
Dave & Kim
Bernard & Anne-Hélène
Olivier & Natasha
Paul & Natasha
Marcus & Bärbl
Lance
Bill & Shannon
Melanie
Christine
Rudolf
---

if you are at least a bit into swing dancing, you should recognize at least half of the names, and not associate them with just 50s rock'n'roll.
Actually, can you associate any of them with the 50s more than with the 30s?

It would be helpful if you would less act out your prejudices.

mr. e
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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#11 Post by mr. e » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:57 am

lipi wrote:
Haydn wrote:
mr. e wrote:When it comes to material, I'm trying to get hold of the "in the mood" line from a sheet.
Sorry, but what do you mean by this :?:. Are you trying to find the lyrics to "In The Mood"?
presumably he means he's looking for some sheet music--a lead sheet or similar which has the melody line written out, showing that the melody
Exactly, an excerpt from a music sheet (i.e. scores) for that part of "In the mood". I don't care about complete scores since I'm not going to play them myself. But I had someone from a big band claiming to me that it would start at a rather odd place; neither 8 nor 1, but even a bit earlier. But he wasn't so sure about the details himself at that moment, and that was quite some time ago.
lipi wrote: except...don't both the intro melody and the main riff of "in the mood" start on 1? i can imagine dividing the riff in such a way that the last hit
Well, it could be for example start on 2 with "In" and have the "mood" on the 4, with the "the" slightly before the 3 to give the emphasis... or whatever; I find that really hard to tell just from listening.

In a midi file of "in the mood" I found, it's about this:

Code: Select all

5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 1
            T        T  S
With T being the trumpets and S being the Saxophones (playing the riff, the trumpets just blare).
However I wouldn't consider that midi file to be accurate. At all, it even sounds pretty cheap and inaccurate... but this "7 pause a-1" is about what I expected it to be. I've often had the impression that dancers start slightly too late on that one, probably because they start on 1, not on a-1.

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#12 Post by mr. e » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:45 am

Toon Town Dave wrote:mr. e, are you asking your question as a DJ or as a scene organizer?
Clearly from the dancing side, not DJing. However, these things as usual mix: teachers also need to choose appropriate music for their classes. Sometimes even need to dig more deeply into the music as a DJ: e.g. when developing a choreography you really need to understand the way a song is built up, know the rhythm etc.
Toon Town Dave wrote: I don't think it's the DJ's place to teach anything about music structure. We should choose good music to help dancers "develop an intuitive understanding".
Intuition works better when it's given some theoretical background, too. Especially as seed for developing an intuitive understanding.
Toon Town Dave wrote: The challenge to what you're asking is that it's a foundation of music theory applied to dance. That's not something that can be taught in a single class.
You will find Musicality classes in every major dance camp. Of course they will always only focus on a fragment, usually depending on the level of the attendees. Likewise, I don't expect people to understand the theory in full, but just (as mentioned earlier) understand that e.g. triple step timing can and should vary from song to song, and that sometimes you don't start on 1, but you might want to start ahead or delay it. There are dozens of examples where you need these things. Shim Sham usually starts on 8. There are "stomp offs". There is "hesitation".
In my opinion, these things (and their timing) shouldn't be taught alone, but always in conjuntion with music actually exhibiting these variations.
Toon Town Dave wrote: I'm more interested in that developing that intuitive understanding and more importantly just getting dancers to listen to the music more critically. Ideally I'd like dancers to hear the rhythm, the melody and even the dynamic range and incorporate that into their dancing even without a technical understanding.
That is basically where I'd like to take them. But isn't showing them examples of what IS in the music, and how it can be incorporated, the obvious way of helping them into that direction?

The reason why I'd like to have the scores for that line of "in the mood" (if it has the characteristics I'm looking for...) is this:
People think differently. That's the same reason why we don't count "1 2 3 4" all the time in classes, but also "ba de ba de-bum", clap etc. Using real words helps some people, but not _everyone_. Some people understand rhythm better when there is no _language_ involved. I've had people tell me they "see animals in music". I don't, I feel a flowing motion.
Wikipedia wrote: Research by Child Development Theorist Linda Kreger Silverman suggests that less than 30% of the population strongly uses visual/spatial thinking, another 45% uses both visual/spatial thinking and thinking in the form of words, and 25% thinks exclusively in words.
The "words" group is probably what is also called "auditory thinkers"; I'm not an expert on that field.
So I'm looking for ways to help the visual people in understanding things, based on the assumption that it varies how we think. I'm trying to combine all the ways: the kinesthetic learners are covered by teaching them certain steps such as stomp offs etc., auditory learners are best served with some appropriate music I guess. I can explain things for the textual thinkers. But I'd also like to have some kind of "visualization" for the visual people.

Apropos visual thinkers: have you seen the movie "idlewild"? It contains some cute animations on what a "visual thinker" might perceive music like.

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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#13 Post by lipi » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:19 pm

mr. e wrote: but this "7 pause a-1" is about what I expected it to be. I've often had the impression that dancers start slightly too late on that one, probably because they start on 1, not on a-1.
do you expect the dancers to dance to the melody or the rhythm section? i'm not being facetious, though perhaps i am being socratic.

i'm still not sure what part of the music you're talking about, but it sure sounds to be like everything is written on the beat, though it's swung of course (and that won't be written, so finding sheet music won't help you a tremendous lot there). can you give us a time index in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJE-onnw2gM

also, note that googlification of "in the mood" sheet music gets you plenty of images you can look at.

with regards to visual versus aural learning and all that: you may find howard gardner's "frames of mind" an interesting read.

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Re: Educating about swing rhythms and schemes?

#14 Post by fredo » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:33 pm

lipi wrote: do you expect the dancers to dance to the melody or the rhythm section? i'm not being facetious, though perhaps i am being socratic.
good question.

My first reaction would be to follow the rhythm section. Melodies can fit within rhythmic patterns or numbers of beats/measures. Dancing to the melody usually involves finding a way to make the movement fit within the framework of the rhythm section anyway.

I think it's the syncopation of the music, the swinging rhythm, that allows for stylistic/rhythmic variation in dancing. These rhythmic choices, based on the tune of the song, are the content of what we're talking about, i think.

I agree with lipi that showing sheet music of the melody would take a few extra steps to get to what you'd hear in the music. You'd have to demonstrate what swinging eighth notes sound/feel like, or dotted eighth notes, or any number of other things that musicians are trained to read in the music, hence Toon Town Dave's point about needing a music theory class before you could even get to how to make your body translate visual music into movement. Also, would the notes be of any concern, or just they rhythms of the melody?

i like the idea of what you're talking about -- trying to reach the different modes of learning styles -- but finding a purely visual way of teaching dance musicality (visual = music notes or graphics) may be getting a bit complex for a casual dance class. I think this is why dance is historically taught in a kinesthetic way. That, and people don't dance to sheet music. :wink:

Being a musician/dancer definitely gives more insight into what's possible, but there's a ton of content there to teach. Besides, it's hard to say whether someone well trained in music and dance would look or dance any better than someone who learned from listening to the music only -- which makes me question the degree of usefulness for learning musicality from sheet music.

it would be interesting to see a DDR game for swing dancing that tried to mix visual and kinesthetic, but somehow I don't think 4 directional arrows on a screen would cut it.

or better yet, how about a Disney-style "follow the bouncing ball" approach! haha

I appreciate the thought you're putting into this approach to teaching, but I think it goes far beyond the scope of what current workshops/classes are intended for. Maybe if you could get a degree in theoretical vernacular jazz dance this would be a good seminar.

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#15 Post by Toon Town Dave » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:23 pm

I'm not a musician so I'm quite dumb when it comes to understanding the technical aspects. I rely more on the intuitive, it works for me. I've tried to intellectualize what a swing rhythm is but I think swing is very ephemeral and contextual. I've read several descriptions of what a swing rhythm is, none agreed. They best explanation was there is no way to encode it, rhythm players just know how to play it.

One of the main things that I see with a lot of dancers (not just swing and not just partner dancing) is that they look at music in a very superficial way. Many dancers look at the music to provide a clock and pretty lyrics and their dancing shows it in dancing spot on with movement happening discretely on beat and very little in between. It almost looks like claymation. Mr. e, I think this might be what you are trying to combat with musicality lessons.

Instead, there is a lot happening inside that music clock. Many gears and springs working together to make the hands move. Just like the clock, music has instruments.I believe it's more important to get dancers to open up that clock and appreciate what the gears are doing. Get them to recognize and isolate different instruments and hear the rhythm and how it's played. Get them to notice the timing of the rhythm instruments, the timing of the melody on top of it. A jazz audience needs to listen differently than an audience than the creatively limp pop music on the radio or the earthquake inducing pounding rhythm of club music.

All the technical stuff is great and essential for creators of music buy dancers are listeners and interpreters. If we don't know how to hear the concepts, we will never make that connection between the concept and the words, actions or symbols used to teach it. Being able to hear the music, we can put what we hear in our own language that suits the way we think and learn.

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