Why not start with the good movies first?
And to build excitement in your scene - speaking of movies - why not show people what the music and the dance sound and look like when done properly?
Run the clips!
Songs for teaching / beginners classes
Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy
Analogy - you will show sub-standard movies to people who dont know much about movies in hopes that they will come to appreciate good movies.
Why not start with the good movies first?
And to build excitement in your scene - speaking of movies - why not show people what the music and the dance sound and look like when done properly?
Run the clips!
Why not start with the good movies first?
And to build excitement in your scene - speaking of movies - why not show people what the music and the dance sound and look like when done properly?
Run the clips!
straycat,
I can appreciate what you're trying to do, and I agree it's no easy thing. Starting a scene I'm sure is full of challenges, and I haven't done it myself, so I applaud your efforts.
Building off of John's comment, one thing I've been doing with all my swing classes is to take the first 5-10 min of each class to gather around the laptop and watch various dance clips. Many people have no idea what lindy hop is like in action. We may all know about ULHS, Hellzapoppin', Herrang, Dean Collins, Al & Leon, Harlem Hot Shots, and the list goes on, but most people don't know any of these things before they start..... until someone shows them. Each week of class we'll show them a different clip covering the vintage and the modern. At first we wanted to show them Hellzapoppin' and stuff like that, for obvious reasons, but I found that it was helpful to also show clips of social dancing. Clips from Spirit Moves social dancing at the Savoy, and clips of mid-tempo contests at ULHS, so they didn't think it was all about air steps and grainy music. Showing people your own age out on a dance floor having fun with people excited about swing music and lindy hop is, I think, one of the best ways to influence a class.
Anyway, all this is to say that I believe it's possible to give new dancers whatever impression of lindy hop as you want. Just because they may come into the class with only neo-swing in their minds, doesn't mean they have to have that reinforced by the teacher. Entertainment and excitement are contagious, so I feel that if the instructors are passionate about the music they'd like to teach people to dance to, then people will follow. If they don't, well it's a free market so it may not have enough support. I'm sure the conflict between business and artistic vision can be hard to mitigate in small scenes.
I know every scene is a bit different, so these suggestions about clips could be altered to fit the sound and style that your scene is into. good luck!
I can appreciate what you're trying to do, and I agree it's no easy thing. Starting a scene I'm sure is full of challenges, and I haven't done it myself, so I applaud your efforts.
Building off of John's comment, one thing I've been doing with all my swing classes is to take the first 5-10 min of each class to gather around the laptop and watch various dance clips. Many people have no idea what lindy hop is like in action. We may all know about ULHS, Hellzapoppin', Herrang, Dean Collins, Al & Leon, Harlem Hot Shots, and the list goes on, but most people don't know any of these things before they start..... until someone shows them. Each week of class we'll show them a different clip covering the vintage and the modern. At first we wanted to show them Hellzapoppin' and stuff like that, for obvious reasons, but I found that it was helpful to also show clips of social dancing. Clips from Spirit Moves social dancing at the Savoy, and clips of mid-tempo contests at ULHS, so they didn't think it was all about air steps and grainy music. Showing people your own age out on a dance floor having fun with people excited about swing music and lindy hop is, I think, one of the best ways to influence a class.
Anyway, all this is to say that I believe it's possible to give new dancers whatever impression of lindy hop as you want. Just because they may come into the class with only neo-swing in their minds, doesn't mean they have to have that reinforced by the teacher. Entertainment and excitement are contagious, so I feel that if the instructors are passionate about the music they'd like to teach people to dance to, then people will follow. If they don't, well it's a free market so it may not have enough support. I'm sure the conflict between business and artistic vision can be hard to mitigate in small scenes.
I know every scene is a bit different, so these suggestions about clips could be altered to fit the sound and style that your scene is into. good luck!
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Mr Awesomer
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If anything this only illustrates why the crap is popular. As much as I rail on it, I completely understand why people use it.Eyeball wrote:Why not start with the good movies first?
To expand upon your analogy, when you're new to movies you'd much rather watch Ace Ventura then Laurence of Arabia. As your taste develops, you discover that you'd much rather be watching Laurence of Arabia then Ace Ventura.
Reuben Brown
Southern California
Southern California
(it's "lawrence"--with a w. oh...LAWrence. like that.)
jim carrey is like...er...i'm having a hard time thinking of a suitably bad swing simile. like a wedding dj shouting "and here's one for all you swing dancers!" and putting on "rock around the clock"? no. that's still too good. maybe a celine dion song. yes.
o.k., sorry. back to the topic at hand. your point is valid when it comes to moves and music. possibly films, too. just not these two.
no f'in' way. never. ever. in a million years.Mr Awesomer wrote: To expand upon your analogy, when you're new to movies you'd much rather watch Ace Ventura then Laurence of Arabia. As your taste develops, you discover that you'd much rather be watching Laurence of Arabia then Ace Ventura.
jim carrey is like...er...i'm having a hard time thinking of a suitably bad swing simile. like a wedding dj shouting "and here's one for all you swing dancers!" and putting on "rock around the clock"? no. that's still too good. maybe a celine dion song. yes.
o.k., sorry. back to the topic at hand. your point is valid when it comes to moves and music. possibly films, too. just not these two.
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Toon Town Dave
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- Location: Saskatoon, Canada
Eyeball, no. Not that composition. Imagine a tune where the video has Christina in a latex sailor suit. It's a great tune for Ballroom Jive.
Surreal, how many of those people on the floor were swinging out dancing to Candyman?
fredo, great post. I also like the idea of the videos. I take a slightly different approach with videos but a similar goal.
This is a bit tangential to the discussion of music for class but I wanted to comment on straycat's post:
The rest of your observations about the music are also true. I remember when I first started dancing. The music was neo-swing, the dancing was fun but lacking something and most of the dancing what step, step, rock-step. We were taught Lindy Hop but never danced it to anything other than music that was used in class. Retention was constantly a challenge.
It's true that a lot of people don't really hear swing music. Jeep Jockey Jump is much more complex than Candy Man and someone used to listening to the latter is not likely to latch on and love the former. What I try to do in class, is really try to connect the music and dance. The dance helps people appreciate the music (either watching or participating) while the music helps dancers appreciate the dance as more than just a bunch of complicated but cool moves to memorize.
My approach is based on an observation of myself. Back when the movie Swing Kids came out, the dancing and music were on TV on the trailer. It was awesome. I didn't start dancing until nearly a decade later. Immediately I recognized the dance but the music was different. I had not clue, in my mind, Count Basie and Lawrence Welk were the same thing, sleepy music for old people. What cemented both the dance and the music for me was dancing to a big band with a great drummer that could swing. Specifically In the Mood and Sing Sing Sing (yeah, it's tired but it was new to me and fun at the time).
On my web site I have a featured youtube clip every month to highlight some interesting and inspiring dancing. Normally I don't get a lot of feedback but when I had the clip of Skye and Frida from ULHS dancing to Fats Wallers' Twenty Four Robbers, a bunch of new students said they came to take lessons because of that clip. This re-inforced that I'm on the right track for my goals.
We have more newbies, our scene is growing and more people getting hooked and staying. We went from dances with less than consistently less 10 people last fall to a weekly outdoor dance this past summer with 30-60 people every week. We had 7 people take a 5 hour drive to attend a workshop with Andy and Nina a couple of weeks ago plus a few others who couldn't make it but wanted to go, compared to 2 or 3 a year ago. Last year, we ran a workshop once a month, now we have workshops (with guest instructors) plus 2 weekly classes.
I'm really excited! It's been a tough, slow job re-building our scene but it's now paying dividends in growing scene support and loyalty. It would have been much easier to take the easy route and play "popular" music and pander a bit but that was the approach is not sustainable. One person can keep a scene going with a lot of work and pandering. It takes loyalty for the scene to take a life of it's own and run independent of the organizers.
Really it comes down to long or short term investment. Maybe there's real money involved and short term is important. I can't fault anyone for that, sometimes it's necessary.
Surreal, how many of those people on the floor were swinging out dancing to Candyman?
fredo, great post. I also like the idea of the videos. I take a slightly different approach with videos but a similar goal.
This is a bit tangential to the discussion of music for class but I wanted to comment on straycat's post:
This is almost exactly the situation we're in. With an overarching goal of building a sustainable swing dance scene.What we're trying to do is establish a local scene, since no-one's been kind enough to come and do it for us Sad. To do this, the lessons need to do two things: 1) entertain, and 2) teach. In that order. The key thing is that we need to hang on to as many newcomers as we can. If they enjoy it, they'll come back.... but in the early stages, it's incredibly easy for someone to be put off.
The rest of your observations about the music are also true. I remember when I first started dancing. The music was neo-swing, the dancing was fun but lacking something and most of the dancing what step, step, rock-step. We were taught Lindy Hop but never danced it to anything other than music that was used in class. Retention was constantly a challenge.
It's true that a lot of people don't really hear swing music. Jeep Jockey Jump is much more complex than Candy Man and someone used to listening to the latter is not likely to latch on and love the former. What I try to do in class, is really try to connect the music and dance. The dance helps people appreciate the music (either watching or participating) while the music helps dancers appreciate the dance as more than just a bunch of complicated but cool moves to memorize.
My approach is based on an observation of myself. Back when the movie Swing Kids came out, the dancing and music were on TV on the trailer. It was awesome. I didn't start dancing until nearly a decade later. Immediately I recognized the dance but the music was different. I had not clue, in my mind, Count Basie and Lawrence Welk were the same thing, sleepy music for old people. What cemented both the dance and the music for me was dancing to a big band with a great drummer that could swing. Specifically In the Mood and Sing Sing Sing (yeah, it's tired but it was new to me and fun at the time).
On my web site I have a featured youtube clip every month to highlight some interesting and inspiring dancing. Normally I don't get a lot of feedback but when I had the clip of Skye and Frida from ULHS dancing to Fats Wallers' Twenty Four Robbers, a bunch of new students said they came to take lessons because of that clip. This re-inforced that I'm on the right track for my goals.
We have more newbies, our scene is growing and more people getting hooked and staying. We went from dances with less than consistently less 10 people last fall to a weekly outdoor dance this past summer with 30-60 people every week. We had 7 people take a 5 hour drive to attend a workshop with Andy and Nina a couple of weeks ago plus a few others who couldn't make it but wanted to go, compared to 2 or 3 a year ago. Last year, we ran a workshop once a month, now we have workshops (with guest instructors) plus 2 weekly classes.
I'm really excited! It's been a tough, slow job re-building our scene but it's now paying dividends in growing scene support and loyalty. It would have been much easier to take the easy route and play "popular" music and pander a bit but that was the approach is not sustainable. One person can keep a scene going with a lot of work and pandering. It takes loyalty for the scene to take a life of it's own and run independent of the organizers.
Really it comes down to long or short term investment. Maybe there's real money involved and short term is important. I can't fault anyone for that, sometimes it's necessary.
Almost off topic, but...
I think that live bands are one of _the_ best ways of getting people interested in classes and social dancing. If you can manage to get a class going before a live band gig (either at that venue or near by), then the live band's energy and sheer fun-ness (as well as the familiarity of live music) will help attract and retain dancers. It's also a neat way to promote classes - ordinary punters watching dancers at a live gig.
So in that situation it can often help to play music in class which 'matches' or comes close to the band. This then means that you're kind of limited by the types of bands in your area.
I have mixed feelings about pushing an 'only good jazz for classes' policy. On the one hand, I'm all for it - because that's where my musical tastes lie, because I feel that the dance(s) only really 'work' when they're with the 'right' music, etc etc. But I also think that people come to dancing (and stay there) for different reasons. Not everyone makes it from the once a week casual class to hardcore exchange-whore woo-HOO! social dancing. So it can help to offer more than one type of class (if you have the resources). I've seen a few schools and teachers in different cities offer a 'promotional' type class in addition to their 'hardcore' classes. The promotional class can be the free 'moshpit' style class at a festival or big event. But it can also be a smaller doo at a local live music event.
[anecdotal evidence approaching]
... when I first started dancing in Brisbane when the scene was first beginning, I first heard about casual classes held at a local venue which were followed by a band. I knew the band through my jazznick mates and initially went along to see my friend in the band and to check it out. The class was pretty simple, the venue was pretty dark and crowded, it was all basic stuff like simple 6 count turns, etc. But the band was GREAT and the vibe in the room was excellent.
After a while I decided I wanted a bit more than this. The teachers who took that class also held a 'serious' lindy hop class at another venue on another night. This was a community hall set up with recorded music and a more hardcore teaching format. It was great for learning lindy, but not so great for new dancers who were put off by the florescent lights, 'gym session' type clothing and more complicated steps. There wasn't much social dancing afterwards that I can remember. It was all very interesting and fun, but it was hardly a party.
So, basically, an intro class at a venue with live music is a good way to 'catch' new dancers, but another 'hardcore' class complements that 'fun' gig with more comprehensive teaching. I also found that by the time we got to the more hardcore class we had some idea about what type of music to expect, so the teachers could use more 'hardcore' lindy hopping jazz.
[/]
This approach has obvious challenges for teachers: you're teaching more than one night a week, you're having to teach two distinct types of classes (I'd pitch the first one at a general 'let's just get our bodies moving!' level, the second at a 'let's learn to lindy hop!' level), you're having to use two different approaches (a 'performance' type teaching - where students are there just as much for your jokes as to get their learn on, and 'serious' teaching with a greater emphasis on technical stuff and 'serious' learn) and you're going to use different types of music... possibly.
I also suspect that a lot of new teachers setting up a new scene are simply trying treading water when they first begin - trying not to go under. They're probably still working full time at a 'paid' job, they're learning to teach, they're developing their own dancing, they're learning how to run a business, they're trying to promote their new business... and they probably don't have a huge collection of music of their own (unless they're already into DJing or have been dancing for years already). So I can see how one of those things might get less attention than others. After all, not every dancer (or teacher) aims for DJdom and wants to develop a hardcore collection of music.
So a simple 'list' of songs which are 'good for teaching' is a nice stopgap, if nothing else, for teachers who're doing the hard work of getting a scene up and swinging. Hopefully they'll get a chance to develop a musical collection and greater emphasis on music as their teaching load levels out...
...as someone implied earlier, there's a lot to be said for a list of overplayed songs.
I think that live bands are one of _the_ best ways of getting people interested in classes and social dancing. If you can manage to get a class going before a live band gig (either at that venue or near by), then the live band's energy and sheer fun-ness (as well as the familiarity of live music) will help attract and retain dancers. It's also a neat way to promote classes - ordinary punters watching dancers at a live gig.
So in that situation it can often help to play music in class which 'matches' or comes close to the band. This then means that you're kind of limited by the types of bands in your area.
I have mixed feelings about pushing an 'only good jazz for classes' policy. On the one hand, I'm all for it - because that's where my musical tastes lie, because I feel that the dance(s) only really 'work' when they're with the 'right' music, etc etc. But I also think that people come to dancing (and stay there) for different reasons. Not everyone makes it from the once a week casual class to hardcore exchange-whore woo-HOO! social dancing. So it can help to offer more than one type of class (if you have the resources). I've seen a few schools and teachers in different cities offer a 'promotional' type class in addition to their 'hardcore' classes. The promotional class can be the free 'moshpit' style class at a festival or big event. But it can also be a smaller doo at a local live music event.
[anecdotal evidence approaching]
... when I first started dancing in Brisbane when the scene was first beginning, I first heard about casual classes held at a local venue which were followed by a band. I knew the band through my jazznick mates and initially went along to see my friend in the band and to check it out. The class was pretty simple, the venue was pretty dark and crowded, it was all basic stuff like simple 6 count turns, etc. But the band was GREAT and the vibe in the room was excellent.
After a while I decided I wanted a bit more than this. The teachers who took that class also held a 'serious' lindy hop class at another venue on another night. This was a community hall set up with recorded music and a more hardcore teaching format. It was great for learning lindy, but not so great for new dancers who were put off by the florescent lights, 'gym session' type clothing and more complicated steps. There wasn't much social dancing afterwards that I can remember. It was all very interesting and fun, but it was hardly a party.
So, basically, an intro class at a venue with live music is a good way to 'catch' new dancers, but another 'hardcore' class complements that 'fun' gig with more comprehensive teaching. I also found that by the time we got to the more hardcore class we had some idea about what type of music to expect, so the teachers could use more 'hardcore' lindy hopping jazz.
[/]
This approach has obvious challenges for teachers: you're teaching more than one night a week, you're having to teach two distinct types of classes (I'd pitch the first one at a general 'let's just get our bodies moving!' level, the second at a 'let's learn to lindy hop!' level), you're having to use two different approaches (a 'performance' type teaching - where students are there just as much for your jokes as to get their learn on, and 'serious' teaching with a greater emphasis on technical stuff and 'serious' learn) and you're going to use different types of music... possibly.
I also suspect that a lot of new teachers setting up a new scene are simply trying treading water when they first begin - trying not to go under. They're probably still working full time at a 'paid' job, they're learning to teach, they're developing their own dancing, they're learning how to run a business, they're trying to promote their new business... and they probably don't have a huge collection of music of their own (unless they're already into DJing or have been dancing for years already). So I can see how one of those things might get less attention than others. After all, not every dancer (or teacher) aims for DJdom and wants to develop a hardcore collection of music.
So a simple 'list' of songs which are 'good for teaching' is a nice stopgap, if nothing else, for teachers who're doing the hard work of getting a scene up and swinging. Hopefully they'll get a chance to develop a musical collection and greater emphasis on music as their teaching load levels out...
...as someone implied earlier, there's a lot to be said for a list of overplayed songs.
Ya - I have seen and heard it.Toon Town Dave wrote:Eyeball, no. Not that composition. Imagine a tune where the video has Christina in a latex sailor suit. It's a great tune for Ballroom Jive.
Heard worse.
It's a good gateway tune to introduce people to the 'hard stuff' down the road.
Another fine point I would like to make : many people do not seem to be familiar with the instruments or what sounds they make. "Horns". That's often it.
I think it would help people's listening comprehension and perhaps their dance comprehension if, in their minds, they could see what instruments were making the sounds they were hearing. It simply takes away some of the 'mystery' that tyros experience.
Also - any guy wearing a tyrolean hat and thinking/pretending it is a 'Swing hat" (hahahaha! - "swing hat") - out the door!.
Last edited by Eyeball on Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Perhaps not, but I think I'd try them on The Incredibles before showing them PI. Break them in gently...Eyeball wrote:Analogy - you will show sub-standard movies to people who dont know much about movies in hopes that they will come to appreciate good movies.
Why not start with the good movies first?
We've done this in the past, when we could - and thanks for the reminder - it occurs to me that there's a perfect spot in our latest venue to do exactly that. Now.... to source something to play them on...Eyeball wrote: And to build excitement in your scene - speaking of movies - why not show people what the music and the dance sound and look like when done properly?
Run the clips!
A thought occurred to me when reading through these arguments about what sort of music should be used in classes for people who are just starting to dance to swing music. The thought was that the best way to learn to dance is by dancing.
NB: I've seen people who I believe have had few if any swing dance lessons have a great time dancing to swing music. I've also seen people do a lot of classes and struggle to enjoy dancing.
NB: I've seen people who I believe have had few if any swing dance lessons have a great time dancing to swing music. I've also seen people do a lot of classes and struggle to enjoy dancing.
One of our local clubs had the beginner-friendly discussion a few years ago. We had so many different tastes and opinions about what "beginner-friendly" meant that we needed to bring everyone together so we could come up with a communal definition. The club brought together teachers, board members, DJs, and a few beginning swing students to discuss what makes a good beginner song. We defined beginner-friendly for this specific club, based on their mission statement, then went through the club's music and voted song-by-song to create a beginner-friendly recommendation list. Even though people came into the conversation a bit tense and apprehensive (you know we all have egos!), they all seemed to agree that it ended up being a fascinating conversation where all of us learned something. I think y'all hit every point we discussed in those meetings.
The list isn't online, but I could forward or post part of it if anyone is interested.
The list isn't online, but I could forward or post part of it if anyone is interested.
And the music evolved into Bebop losing much of the dancability. So much of the Neo/Revival stuff is actually much more danceable than what you'll find on compilations called "Swing music", just because the dancers and the music lovers can disagree a lot about their naming.fredo wrote:The dancing was born from the music
People were likely also taught stuff very differently back then, if at all. So the way we're teaching it just has to be wrong too, doesn't it?
Some people here still try to read "never ever use 30s swing for teaching". Again: Nobody said that. Just that there are some newer songs that work very well for teaching, *too* (not exclusively new stuff!).
Also never forget that many of the beginners never were really exposed to Jazz music a lot before. They might even have some prejudice against it (just like many people have against classical music) of being just for a particular kind of people (e.g. older people).
Giving them a solid mix (which can include aforementioned Candyman, although I'd not use that for a beginners class) of old and new stuff is best because it actually will take them from a place they know (modern music) to the original stuff, instead of making them feel on mars. Don't try to enforce your musical taste on them with a crowbar, but just expose them and make them learn to love it themselves.
Same holds for the clips, too. Showing people without any previous dancing knowledge Hellzapoppin doesn't work too well. To them it will just be an old movie with crazy people hopping around in an uncoordinated way (unless they've been dancing themselves a lot). At most they'll laught at it, but it won't make them want to start dancing usually. If you want to get new people in, stuff like this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_GkyZ3uKW_8
will work much better. "Spiderman" is totally overplayed for me, and the video isn't very typical for lindy hop in my opinion either. But it works very well for attracting people that were not exposed to Swing before.
I still have to meet someone who started swing dancing and not got interested in the roots on it's own. Just make an event for watching the old clips and movies, and they'll all show up.
Working with new people - and that includes beginners dancing classes - is a lot about picking them up at where they are, not making them come to the place you are at. Which of course doesn't mean you shouldn't be giving them indications of where you are. Of course you should also use some 30s swing in the classes. But when you notice people are more comfortable with some of the newer stuff, play it also.
