Early jazz at lindy dances

[Haydn]

In my experience songs with the feel of Goodman's one tend to get played a lot more that Webb's.

As I said, that's not at all true in my experience. (Of swing dances, anyway.)

I don't think I have heard Benny's version (or even that style, generally) DJed in a while, and not regularly since the mid-90s. ... the "style" of the Chick Webb version is MUCH more common in my experience.

That's encouraging because, if I've understood correctly, it means you are hearing lots of early jazz at dances. It could be that our local scenes are different in this respect.

Even when I did a two-hour all-Benny Goodman set last week in honor of the 1938 concert 70th Anniversary, I didn't come close to touching that song.

By the way, Lawrence, which BG songs DID you play at that gig?

[CafeSavoy]

An example is the song 'Don't Be That Way'. The hit Benny Goodman version (160 bpm) is comfortable for most people to dance to. The earlier, faster Chick Webb version (c 205 bpm) is not comfortable for most people to dance 'lindy' to. It IS 'danceable', but it's outside most peoples lindy hop comfort range, which is probably why it doesn't get played much.

So I think when people have a hard time dancing to the earlier music, the result is it doesn't get played much. Which is a big shame because a lot of it has so much great dance energy

I don't those versions are that far apart in time. The Goodman, Hampton, Dorsey, and Kansas City Five at Carnegie Hall are all from 1938. Chick Webb has versions from 1934 and 1936. Granted the music changed from the mid to late 30s, but to me it was all really swinging. When I think of hot jazz, I think more 20s and some early 30s; and a lot of that was really swinging too. Look at McKinney Cotton Pickers. Most of that is lindy music. You can hear the transition music in Chick Webb's playing for Shorty George Snowden in After Seben. Maybe Chick should be considered Hot Swing. As for the different tempos and styles i think some of that is because of targeting for different audiences and because some songs can work at different tempos. Also musicians sometimes like to give songs different treatments. You can often find huge tempo variations in a song from the same session. For example, Coleman Hawkins in a May 25, 1940 session has two versions of "I can't believe you are in love with me" that are almost 100 bpm apart in tempo.

[Haydn]

Chick Webb has versions from 1934 and 1936

It's the 1934 version I was referring to (I think it's much better than the 1936 (transcription?) one - it seems to have a lot more energy.

Granted the music changed from the mid to late 30s, but to me it was all really swinging. When I think of hot jazz, I think more 20s and some early 30s; and a lot of that was really swinging too. Maybe Chick should be considered Hot Swing.

Yeah, that might be a good label for it . It seems that jazz dance music changed in two ways between the 1920s and 1940. First from hot jazz to 'hot swing' in the early 1930s, then from 'hot swing' to 'classic swing' in the late 1930s.

[Haydn]

Either I'm at a dance where people would be uncomfortable w/ Chick, and the song doesn't get played in its old, peppy, big band version altogether, or I'm at a dance where people would be comfortable with Chick, and Chick's version gets played.

But in my experience, if people aren't able to keep up with Chick, they tend to be bored by the Benny (because they can't even relate to anything but the most pounding of big-band music yet), so I just don't hear Benny played much at all, anywhere.

Katie, just coming back to this. I don't understand when you say

they tend to be bored by the Benny (because they can't even relate to anything but the most pounding of big-band music yet)

Can you explain what you mean by this

[Haydn]

With reference to Benny Goodman, I've just got a CD called The Essential Benny Goodman [Bluebird/Legacy] which has by far the best-sounding version of his 'Don't Be That Way' that I've heard. On this CD, 'Don't Be That Way' sounds cleaner and less 'tinny' than normal (note: it's a different take, but from the same year). In general, this CD is excellent for music and sound quality.

[kitkat]

they tend to be bored by the Benny (because they can't even relate to anything but the most pounding of big-band music yet)

Can you explain what you mean by this

Sure! I mean that it takes some super-duper-high-energy old big band music to get people who've been taught to lindy hop to "Wade In The Water" and "Jump, Jive, 'n' Wail" interested in dancing. You can find old big band music that'll interest them, but it's hard, and in my experience, Benny Goodman's "Don't Be That Way" just doesn't have the punch that would do it.

(By the way, don't forget that "high-energy" does not have to be "high tempo." However, with beginners in America, they've often had so much East Coast Swing background that even if they've never lindy hopped to fast music, if the music swings hard enough to make them want to dance, they'll go out on the floor and just do whatever they know how to do--that is, ECS--to it.)

But this might be something that I just can't convey in print. This is one of those things that I wish I could just have you sitting next to me in the booth at a dance. I'd say, "Okay, see those dancers? Watch how they react to the following songs" and then mess around w/ getting them to dance vs. not getting them to dance. That'd be the easiest way to explain it. Sorry.

[zzzzoom]

With reference to Benny Goodman, I've just got a CD called The Essential Benny Goodman [Bluebird/Legacy] which has by far the best-sounding version of his 'Don't Be That Way' that I've heard. On this CD, 'Don't Be That Way' sounds cleaner and less 'tinny' than normal (note: it's a different take, but from the same year). In general, this CD is excellent for music and sound quality.

In looking around for this CD, I found that it is available on iTunes and it says that "Don't Be That Way" was remastered in 1987 so that might account for the better sound quality. Several other tracks are noted as remastered.

[kitkat]

By the way, my boyfriend's pretty busy right now, and so am I, but one of these days (within a few months), if you're curious, Haydn, I can ask him to listen to individual instruments (yeah, he can hear that--as can many people on this board--makes me sick with jealousy) in both versions and tell me stuff about:
-the size of the "pocket" each musician is playing in
-how many different "pockets" he hears going on in the band and who's with whom
-what types of choices each drummer & bass player is making about when to hit what
-what instruments are the most audible (one thing I notice is that the piano's about the only rhythm instrument always audible, sometimes with a 2nd instrument--not sure if it's the clack of a guitar string or the clack of a drum's higher-pitched parts--to my unskilled ear in the Goodman, whereas the drums, the bass, and sometimes a third rhythm instrument--can't tell if it's a piano or guitar--are all audible to my unskilled ear in the Webb)
-etc.

Or maybe someone on this board will break such things down--I know there're people here who are capable.

Such an analysis would be chock full of detail that probably wouldn't help you actually become a DJ who better understands how various types of dancers react to various types of music. As I said, the best way to get an explanation like that would be to sit in the booth with someone, have them point out a certain group of dancers, and have them manipulate that group of dancers for you! But it might satisfy your analytical curiosity--something I get the impression you've got a lot of.

[Haydn]

In looking around for this CD, I found that it is available on iTunes and it says that "Don't Be That Way" was remastered in 1987 so that might account for the better sound quality. Several other tracks are noted as remastered.

Here's a link on 'Legacy Recordings' website -
http://www.legacyrecordings.com/Benny-G ... odman.aspx

The same label has an excellent Glenn Miller CD, again the sound quality is great -
http://www.legacyrecordings.com/Glenn-M ... iller.aspx

[Haydn]

they tend to be bored by the Benny (because they can't even relate to anything but the most pounding of big-band music yet)

Can you explain what you mean by this

Sure! I mean that it takes some super-duper-high-energy old big band music to get people who've been taught to lindy hop to "Wade In The Water" and "Jump, Jive, 'n' Wail" interested in dancing. You can find old big band music that'll interest them, but it's hard, and in my experience, Benny Goodman's "Don't Be That Way" just doesn't have the punch that would do it.

OK - thanks for the explanation. Originally I thought you were knocking Benny Goodman by calling him boring (and I had the idea that the dances you go to are full of whizz-kid dancers who only dance to Chick Webb and his ilk ), but I think you just meant that tracks like his 'Don't Be That Way' are too subtle and laid-back to grab the dancers (Don't Be That Way has a long introduction and seems to build the energy gradually). Are Glenn Miller's Pennsylvania 6-5000 and In The Mood, and Tommy Dorsey's What'cha Know Joe and Opus One the sort of track that you mean by 'super-duper-high-energy' old big band music? I've seen them work with beginners.

[Haydn]

Such an analysis would be chock full of detail that probably wouldn't help you actually become a DJ who better understands how various types of dancers react to various types of music. As I said, the best way to get an explanation like that would be to sit in the booth with someone, have them point out a certain group of dancers, and have them manipulate that group of dancers for you! But it might satisfy your analytical curiosity--something I get the impression you've got a lot of.

Now, what ever makes you think that

[kitkat]

Are Glenn Miller's Pennsylvania 6-5000 and In The Mood, and Tommy Dorsey's What'cha Know Joe and Opus One the sort of track that you mean by 'super-duper-high-energy' old big band music? I've seen them work with beginners.

Actually, with respect to 6-500 & In The Mood, no.

I'm so glad you asked, because I came thiiiiiiiis close to rambling on about why tracks like those also get beginners out on the floor but decided it'd be going off on too much of a tangent.

The reason those two old big band songs get beginning dancers out on the floor is because they know them so well from outside their new hobby--from "the real world." I mean, any person with a band background in America has played those two songs as their high school directors decided to do "a swing number!"


As far as "Whatcha Know Joe"--yeah, I'd say that that has a certain hard punch to it.
There's also something a bit sappy & annoying about it if you hear it one too many times in too short a time period and know how to dance well enough that you feel like you've danced to or with everything you can possibly hear in it 5x...but it definitely has a "make one want to dance" energy that's pretty high up there as far as, well, cheesy old songs go. And it's so repetitive with its lyrics...that ALWAYS adds to a song's "make one want to dance" energy before they know the song inside and out.

"Opus One" is also really repetitive and has a pretty good amount of "make one want to dance" energy--though probably not as much as "Whatcha Know Joe."
Then again, I'd imagine it wouldn't get as many beginning dancers out on the floor as "Whatcha Know Joe" unless they happen to be beginning dancers who recognize the song from "the real world."



But I gotta say...since the first two songs aren't high-energy, I only play them at dances where I have lots of paying beginner customers to please and yet feel pressure from better dancers to stick to big band or combo swing (rather than just please the newbies by playing jump blues or "Wade In The Water"). And, quite honestly, I feel that pressure at almost everything I DJ--mostly because I market myself as a DJ who'll give the intermediate-advanced & advanced dancers a night chock full of what they consider "real swing."

"Whatcha Know Joe" I just acquired, so I haven't played it much.

"Opus One" I've played even at events full of intermediate-advanced dancers because it makes me want to move...hopefully it's working for them, too... If I had a greater selection of high-energy, low-tempo swing in my collection, maybe I'd let it go, but I don't yet, so I still use it when I need a low-tempo song.