Early jazz at lindy dances

[Lawrence]

This is where I would agree with Trev-- I'll take an old recording that really moves me over a new recording that just has good sound quality but doesn't really inspire me--must be a preference difference between us. Are there "soulful" modern jazz bands with CDs to play from? Of COURSE! no one has argued for ONLY playing old recordings--Haydn simply asked why more early jazz recordings aren't played at dances.

Actually, plenty of people have not only argued for playing only vintage music, several actually do so. As for Hayden's original question, the answer is obvious, Kit Kat and I already stated it, and there is no reason to re-state it.

As for your main point, you did the same thing Trev did; you both changed my position to advocating for playing lifeless, soulless new recordings of early jazz instead of playing soulful, vintage recordings of early jazz. If you set the dichotomy up that way, OF COURSE you should play more vintage recordings than otherwise.

But my point (or at least the corollary point at the end of my post) is that is NOT the choice you face. The point I was making is that so many vintage-oriented DJs spend so much time in vintage bins searching for vintage recordings that they overlook great new recordings that would satisfy their stylistic preferences AND their desire for "soulful" playing. You actually AGREED with me on my fundamental point (that these great, new recordings of early jazz do exist), but shifted the emphasis of your post so that it looked like you disagreed.

I should add that I did overstate my point about our influence on the success or failure of modern bands who play early jazz. Our not playing modern recordings of early jazz is not the only reason those bands are stuck in the bar circuit; I should have written that vintage DJs playing only vintage recordings "helps ensure that the music will die," not "ensures that it will die." We are not so influential that we can break them, ourselves, but we can be influential in helping them out instead of allowing them to fester in anonymity until they just give up.
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[fredo]

Lawrence, I'm not sure why you even bothered to post in this topic if what you say is your "real point" is not even what Haydn wants to talk about.

Haydn: I was referring to early recordings of early jazz, like those I mentioned.

No one in this thread has advocated for vintage only deejaying, so there is no need to bother arguing against it. done. get off your soapbox already.

As for your point (unrelated as it may be to the actual topic) about some deejays not listening to enough modern early jazz bands and not mixing them in enough, I do agree...but you're moving the target.

Now, yes, when DJing, I would compromise some "soulfulness" in return for actually being able to clearly hear the music: mostly because that is what the average dancer wants. But that is not what I was focusing attention upon, which was "SOULFUL," clearly-recorded early jazz.

Trev and I (forgive me Trev if I mistake your position) are commenting on your compromise of new recordings over some "soulfulness". We are not arguing for vintage only. I'm happy to mix good new and good old in a set, I just dont think sound quality is always worth the compromise, assuming you can hear both recordings well enough to dance to. Tolerances may differ from dancer to dancer.

For example, depending on the dance, I might choose to play Willie Bryant's Viper's Moan or Dean Mora's Viper's Moan. Both are great recordings, but sometimes I'd rather play Willie Bryant's because I like the sound/feeling I get from it, even though Mora's is a clearer recording. On another night I might play Mora's because I know my crowd would enjoy a bright, new recording.

I'm glad you concede that you overstated yourself with regards to our influence over the fate of modern jazz. Yes we can be players in the story of modern dance bands, but I still feel that our influence is more relevant to event organizers and promoters which in turn effects our audiences. Dancers just want good music to dance to when at a deejayed dance-- new or old.

If one of your solutions to Haydn's topic is for deejays to find good modern recordings of early jazz arrangements to play, as an alternative to playing early recordings of early jazz, then fine, just say that. Don't respond to arguments that aren't there.

[Lawrence]

Lawrence, I'm not sure why you even bothered to post in this topic if what you say is your "real point" is not even what Haydn wants to talk about.

***
get off your soapbox already.

* * *

If one of your solutions to Haydn's topic is for deejays to find good modern recordings of early jazz arrangements to play, as an alternative to playing early recordings of early jazz, then fine, just say that. Don't respond to arguments that aren't there.

Please read my original post. I DID say that. I also DID stay on topic, and just made an ancillary point at the end about looking for newer recordings of that style instead of just focusin on vintage recordings. I even signalled it as "one other point" at the end, indicating it was just an ancillary comment.

Trev then responded as if it was my main point, and then straw-manned my position as if I said we should play all soulless, lifeless modern recordings purely for sound quality. I clarified to him and to you that the point about modern bands playing early jazz was just an ancillary point, and that you actually both agreed with me (despite professing to disagree) by agreeing that good modern recordings of early-jazz style music exist.

If I am on a soapbox (which I don't think I am on this one), *I* certainly am not the only one.

[fredo]

- why isn't more early jazz like this played at lindy dances

I think another element of this discussion could be about the influence of jazz steps and solo jazz movements in lindy hop.

After listening to the songs you linked to again, I figure I could stick with balboa or Charleston, but I could definitely lindy hop as well. But if I'm doing lindy hop I think I would find myself breaking away from continuous swing outs and passes to occasionally do some footwork patterns or jazz steps/movements with my partner that might fit a particular part of the song. I probably can't describe it in text very well, but I think listening to the rhythms and voices in a tune sometimes makes me want to slow down the pace for a phrase and just mimic the rhythms or sounds I'm hearing.

For this idea I think the inclusion of solo jazz and footwork/rhythm variations are helpful when trying to dance to hot early jazz numbers like the ones listed. I can't speak for every scene, but I think some scenes' dance styles or teaching styles include more of these concepts in their scene personality than others, and this may reflect that scene's ability to enjoy early jazz tunes like these.

This idea likely doesn't explain the situation in all cases, and probably has exceptions. I'm sure there is music other than early jazz that would also call for the style of lindy hop I'm describing, but there's something about early jazz that makes the rhythms and unique sounds stand out from the jazz eras that followed.

[dogpossum]

In addition to driving swing songs like these -

One O'Clock Jump by Count Basie from the album The Complete Decca Recordings

What'cha Know Joe? by Tommy Dorsey from the album Jumpin' Jive

Flying Home by Will Bradley from the album Eight to the Bar: The Very Best of Will Bradley


- why isn't more early jazz like this played at lindy dances -

Algiers Stomp by the Mills Blue Rhythm Band from the album Harlem Heat

Swing, Brother, Swing by Willie "The Lion" Smith from the album The Lion Roars: His Greatest 1934-44

Diga Diga Doo by Duke Ellington from the album Duke's Men: The Small Groups, Vol. 1

Rigamarole by Ozzie and Harriet Nelson from the album The Nelson Touch: 25 Band Hits 1931-1941

Jungle Fever by Glen Gray & the Casa Loma Orchestra from the album Best of the Brunswick Years 1932-1934

I'm guessing that this original post isn't really a discussion about whether we should play more 'really old' jazz or more 'new artists doing old jazz'. I took it as a question about the types of 'older jazz' that we are or aren't playing for lindy hoppers.

In answer, I suspect that each local scene has a different answer because their local DJs play different types of music. I know that I play these types of songs every time I DJ, but that there are other DJs in my town that never, ever play this stuff. And there are other scenes that might play so much of this stuff the dancers go all freaky when they hear 'Splanky', simply because it's a novelty song for them.


I find this is a bit more interesting a question than whether or not we should play music by contemporary bands (partly because it's a given for me - I adore Campus Five, Mora's bands, etc etc).


Soooooo, a DJ can choose to just play old, scratchy, really early jazz.
If they've got mad skillz, the dancers will dance, almost despite themselves.

[anecdotal evidence]There was a DJ here in Melbourne quite a few years ago (when the scene was groove-heavy) who only ever played old scratchies, sometimes on vinyl. He would consistently fill floors and drive dancers into a frenzy. He never compromised on his musical tastes, but he was an absolutely sure-fire winner DJ, simply because he really knew how to work the room. Incidentally, he DJed only irregularly, so the novelty of his specialisation never wore off.[/]

[anecdotal evidence]I mean, I've heard a local DJ do a fabulous all-Basie set a couple of times, but you couldn't do that every week. And we hire DJs to play a 'gangbusters' set at MLX which is all old school, all over 180 bpm (mostly) and all seriously kickarse. It's incredibly popular - with dancers and DJs. But you couldn't do that every week for every audience. Especially not in an Australian summer![/]

Isn't this the appeal of 'specialist' nights? Being able to play a specific style for specific audiences, whether you're playing blues, 'stuff for charleston', working a crowd of balcaholics, ripping it up for lindy hoppers or makin'-it',-doin'-it-cause-we-got-a-show for soul fiends? They give us a chance to showcase our special interests. Whereas our regular, weekly sets give us a chance to offer dancers a sampler of different styles and artists. And if you're lucky enough to have enough DJs, then event managers can offer a 'sampler' of different styles each week by mixing up a roster of different 'specialist' DJs.

I think that playing all one type of music (style, speed, genre, etc) is kind of a liberty not all of us can afford. Especially if we're just learning to DJ. And we're working in a very diverse scene. And if we DJ regularly and rely on the music for our CD purchases. And if the local scene doesn't really value DJing terribly highly.

[Haydn]

I think a big factor may be that people are used to lindy hop partner dancing a certain way. Sometimes it seems to me that nearly everyone is dancing the same moves all night, irrespective of the music. And those moves aren't usually suitable for dancing to faster early jazz, much of which is over 200 bpm (try triple-stepping to some of those songs ). So people use Balboa or Charleston as an escape route. But it's only an escape route - the music doesn't really feel right when dancing that way. The DJ, doing their job, then sees that most people aren't comfortable dancing to this music, and stops playing it.

An example is the song 'Don't Be That Way'. The hit Benny Goodman version (160 bpm) is comfortable for most people to dance to. The earlier, faster Chick Webb version (c 205 bpm) is not comfortable for most people to dance 'lindy' to. It IS 'danceable', but it's outside most peoples lindy hop comfort range, which is probably why it doesn't get played much.

So I think when people have a hard time dancing to the earlier music, the result is it doesn't get played much. Which is a big shame because a lot of it has so much great dance energy

[kitkat]

Hmmmm...I don't actually hear Benny's "Don't Be That Way" DJed much in my life, Haydn.

Either I'm at a dance where people would be uncomfortable w/ Chick, and the song doesn't get played in its old, peppy, big band version altogether, or I'm at a dance where people would be comfortable with Chick, and Chick's version gets played.


But in my experience, if people aren't able to keep up with Chick, they tend to be bored by the Benny (because they can't even relate to anything but the most pounding of big-band music yet), so I just don't hear Benny played much at all, anywhere.

[kitkat]

(And when I say 'superior' I don't mean in the 'technical proficiency' manner - I mean the 'feel-it-in-your-soul, foot tapping' variety) I find it hard to include those modern tracks simply for the sake of supporting modern artists, when nearly all the dancers don't give a damn who it is on the recording anyway. They judge with their feet.

Well said!

To my mind you strengthen the early jazz legacy by incorporating excellent examples into a great night of dancing. While this sometimes means the modern bands get overlooked, I think I can have a more effective influence in promoting them by encouraging everyone to get out to their live gigs, and hiring them for our own big events.

Also well said.

[kitkat]

vintage DJs playing only vintage recordings

The problem is that many Swing DJs have such a HUGE predisposition to search obsessively through millions of vintage bins and then force the most crappy recordings onto mostly passive listeners at dances.

Lawrence, you're going to the WRONG stuff, because in my life, I haven't found that a problem of "many" since 2005.

As you can see from my first post, I still have a lot of vitriol left over from when I did consider it a problem and a lot of paranoia that it might happen again.

However, I haven't actually had it happen to me or heard the type of "vintage DJ" you claim there are "many" of in any worrisome frequency since 2005.

[Eyeball]

Why is 2005 such a point of demarcation?

[kitkat]

Why is 2005 such a point of demarcation?

Because that's when I remember my complaints about it actually happening tapering off. *shrug*

(Note that I kept saying, "in my life." Heaven only knows what year or years it was for other people--and apparently in Lawrence's swing life, it hasn't even happened yet. Which sucks. But maybe that's changeable by attending different local, regional, & national events?)

[Haydn]

Hmmmm...I don't actually hear Benny's "Don't Be That Way" DJed much in my life, Haydn.

Either I'm at a dance where people would be uncomfortable w/ Chick, and the song doesn't get played in its old, peppy, big band version altogether, or I'm at a dance where people would be comfortable with Chick, and Chick's version gets played.

Yes, I don't hear "Don't Be That Way" heard much at all (I think I hear the slower Hampton version most), but it was a useful example to compare a safe tempo version and an earlier faster one of the same song. In my experience songs with the feel of Goodman's one tend to get played a lot more that Webb's. I believe that Goodman's version was a lot more popular in the 1930s that the Webb version, and I think it was done by the same arrangers - was it slowed down deliberately to make it more accessible? Webb's certainly has a wilder energy to it.

[Eyeball]

http://www.swingdjs.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... 5205#25205

[kitkat]

In my experience songs with the feel of Goodman's one tend to get played a lot more that Webb's.

As I said, that's not at all true in my experience. (Of swing dances, anyway.)

[Lawrence]

In my experience songs with the feel of Goodman's one tend to get played a lot more that Webb's.

As I said, that's not at all true in my experience. (Of swing dances, anyway.)

As Katie noted on another issue, her and my "experiences" of vintage DJs tend to differ. But not on this one. I don't think I have heard Benny's version (or even that style, generally) DJed in a while, and not regularly since the mid-90s. Even when I did a two-hour all-Benny Goodman set last week in honor of the 1938 concert 70th Anniversary, I didn't come close to touching that song. Even if that song, in particular, might not be played much, the "style" of the Chick Webb version is MUCH more common in my experience.